Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

[GMichalski]

Hi,

have you any info of the losses for JG 52 or Peter Duttmann this day, there are some Hungarian claims and my info is confusing,

thanks,
regards

[HGabor]

Found Peter Düttmann's claims even less reliable than Hartmann's. (Not judging the cause, just telling the conclusion.) His 3 claims on November 13, 1944 (2 Yak-11s in the Tápiószőllős area and an IL-2 in the Jászberény area) seem to be 100% overclaim.

There were only 2 Yak losses in the morning on November 13, 1944 in the 5th Air Army, lost in dogfights:

One was a Yak-3 (wrongly called Yak-11?) near Ócsa at 10:41 Moscow time - 08:41 local at the altitude of 3500 m. (from 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 'red nose' 150 GvIAP, Yak-3, S/N: 3518, engine: 422-174, pilot: Gv.1Lt. Nikolai Alexeevich Kireev bailed out, wounded, sent to hospital.) 6 Yak-3 vs. 13 Me 109. A pair of Me 109s downed him. Time difference: ~20 mins., distance diff.: ~50-60 km from Düttmann's claims.

The other Yak (Yak-9D, S/N: 1815358) was lost around 11:54AM local time, so here I don't even go in the details. Same with the IL-2.

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Hi Gabor,

So whose claims to these losses actually match?

Regards
Nick

[HGabor]

Hi Nick,
Sorry, I have no idea. Most claims that I know are for the afternoon. I have never collected claims (as they are sometimes just pure fiction, repeated by multiple Publications and 'experts', without having any info from the 'other side'), I have always been focusing on the losses, that are 'verified by their owners', therefore reflect the real events much better. Certainly I can make links between them in some specific cases, but to me the loss records are much more valuable.

5 VA, 451 ShAP IL-2, S/N: 1873177 was lost to Flak(!) at 14:50 Moscow time, 12:50 local and crashlanded at Besenyszög-E, crew (Capt. Chechenev - Sgt. Moiseev) unhurt. I think it does not fit Düttmann's IL-2 claim for '12:2' in the Jászberény area.

Yak-3, S/N: 3518, or '3529218' (as being from factory no.292 in Saratov), by the way, was probably marked '35'. Since the La-5s, La-7s, Yak-3s were factory-marked/numbered with their plane-in-the-batch number, this was No.'35'. (The 35th plane of Yak-3 batch No.18 from Saratov, Russia, factory No.292). See another 'red nose' Yak-3 example from the very same 150 GvIAP: Savelii Vasilevich Nosov's No.'12', alias Yak-3, S/N: 310312 in 1945. (Plane no.12 from Yak-3 batch No.03 from Tbilisi, factory No.31. It was assigned on April 16, 1945.)

Gabor

[HGabor]

Other lost IL-2m3 on November 13, 1944 was IL-2 (S/N: 10454, AM-38F engine: 4590224) from 5 VA, 235 ShAP, which was downed by Flak and crashed into a house in Jászberény at 12:30 Moscow time, 10:30 local. Crew of ml.lt. Burkanov - Lyalin was killed/missing. Location would match Düttmann's IL-2 claim, but the cause of loss and the time of crash wouldn't. (Eight 235 ShAP IL-2s (Comm.: Denisenko) were escoreted by four 513 IAP Yak-9s, when flak hit Burkanov's plane.)


IL-2, S/N.: 1873177 (AM-38F engine No.: 4590226) was discussed previously.

The 3rd 5 Air Army IL-2 loss this day was IL-2, S/N: 9947 (AM-38F engine No.: 259496) which crashlanded during a ferry flight landing on the Kunmadaras airfield. 1 man crew(!) of ml.lt. Vasilevich was unhurt. Plane was flown and crashed without a gunner.

5 VA, 187 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 1872913 exploded mid-air at low altitude at 15:45 Moscow time, 13:45 local, over Zsámbok-S, 3 km with the Bukanov-Maslov crew onboard, due to tank fire. (~Flakpanzer, or flakvierling) Both crewmen were KIA. 9 IL-2s (Comm.: Kulikov) were escorted by 6 La-5s in the Zsámbok-Tura area.

None of them matches Düttmann's IL-2 claim!

Other IL-2s (S/N: 1882202, 9547, 303505, 11180 - from the 208, 525, 637 ShAPs) were downed far away over Southern-Slovakia from the 8th Air Army, etc... Hope this helps for Düttmann.

Gabor

[GMichalski]

hi,

many thanks for your help,


regards

[Maxim1]

As for Duttmann' s claims... quite a number of those were researched by Ivan Lavrinenko:

https://www.proza.ru/2016/07/07/1127

25. 29.12.1943 12:50 P-39 - overclaim
26. 03.01.1944 08:17 P-39 - overclaim
27. 03.01.1944 08:25 P-39 - possible, LaGG-3 of 249 IAP, k-t Osman Ziyadinov MIA
28. 15.01.1944 07:21 Il-2 m.H. - overclaim
29. 17.01.1944 06:41 Il-2 m.H. - overclaim
30. 21.01.1944 11:41 P-40 - LaGG-3 of 88 IAP, m. l-t Dmitry Shulzhenko or m. l-t. Petr Cherepnin, both KIA
31. 10.02.1944 09:25 Jak-1 - possible, 6 GIAP or 25 IAP
32. 10.02.1944 12:00 LaGG-3 - overclaim
33. 12.02.1944 08:52 Jak-1 - possible, LaGG-3 of 805 IAP or 25 IAP
34. 13.02.1944 07:48 P-39 -P-39 of 66 IAP, lt. Nikolay Sobolev WIA, crashlanded, a/c wright off
35. 13.02.1944 15:07 P-39 - overclaim
36. 14.02.1944 11:27 P-39 - possible, P-39 of 57 GIAP, m. lt. Ivan Shcherbak MIA
37. 26.02.1944 12:24 P-40 - P-40 of 83 GIAP, damaged, crashlanded
38. 01.03.1944 08:03 P-40 - possible, Yak-7b of 84 GIAP, damaged, m. lt. Zorin WIA
39. 02.03.1944 09:55 Jak-1 - possible, Yak-1 of 42 GIAP, damaged, st. lt. Zaytsev OK
40. 11.03.1944 16:22 Jak-1 - unclear but possible
41. 12.03.1944 07:45 P-40F - overclaim
42. 12.03.1944 07:52 P-40F - overclaim
43. 13.03.1944 08:35 Il-2 - possible, Il-2 of 8 GShAP or 47 ShAP
44. 14.03.1944 13:00 LaGG-3 - LaGG-3 of 249 IAP, st. lt. Petr Shcheblykin WIA
45. 16.03.1944 10:10 Il-2 - Il-2 of 7 GShAP, k-n Vladimir Demidov and st-na Vasily Poplavsky both WIA, Poplavsky DOW
46. 16.03.1944 10:11 Il-2 - overclaim
47. 16.03.1944 10:12 Il-2 - overclaim
48. 16.03.1944 10:13 P-40 - overclaim
49. 17.03.1944 09:15 LaGG-3 - overclaim
50. 17.03.1944 09:20 LaGG-3 - overclaim
51. 17.03.1944 09:21 LaGG-3 - overclaim
52. 17.03.1944 09:23 Il-2 - overclaim
53. 26.03.1944 09:23 Jak-1 - possible, Yak-9 of 15 IAP, m. lt. Ivan Dmitriyev MIA
54. 26.03.1944 16:07 Jak-1 - possible, Yak-9 of 274 IAP, m-r Nikolay Volchkov KIA
55. 26.03.1944 16:08 Jak-1 - overclaim
56. 05.04.1944 13:11 LaGG-5 - overclaim
57. 05.04.1944 17:26 Il-2 - possible, Il-2 of 210 ShAP, damaged, later repaired
58. 05.04.1944 17:30 P-40F - overclaim
59. 05.04.1944 17:31 P-40F - overclaim
...
61. 09.04.1944 10:09 Il-2 - possible
62. 09.04.1944 10:12 Il-2 - overclaim

In total: 5 confirmed, 12 possible, 20 overclaims

Regards,
Maksim