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  #41  
Old 26th May 2016, 16:02
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Hi everyone, so here's a collation of what we have so far. Please note that there are some discrepancies/duplications in such things as kill numbers (especially No.307). If these can be sorted out, I am happy to re-type and re-post the information.

Nick

Hartmann's known claims/Overclaims:


No.1, IL-2 on 5.11.42/1205 over PQ 44793, Digora (Caucasus) @ 400m: 7 GShAP, 4 VA. No further details known
.
No.2, OVERCLAIM 27.01.1943 11:30 MiG-1


No.3, LaGG-3 on 9.2.43/0655-0750 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86722) @ 1000m: 66 IAP lost St.Lt. Ilya Vladimirovich Khludenev KIA this date (was this him?)


No.4, Boston on 10.2.43/0615 over Slawjanskaja (PQ 86671) @ 3200m: Was this from 45 BAP? They suffered some losses this date


No. 7, P-39 on 15.4.43/1533 over Taman: 45 IAP, either 41-38451 of Starishiy Leytenant M Petrov or 42-4606 of Serzhant Bezbabnov (but see Waldemar Eyrich's claim). Both KIA


No.16, U-2 on 15.5.43/1210 over Titarovskaya station (Taman) (PQ 86544) @ low altitude: HQ 278 IAD. Leytenant Vladimir Ivanovich Ershov (senior pilot)[KIA] 274 IAP (3 IAK) and passenger Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Ivanovich Kryukov [MIA] 43 IAP (3 IAK)


No. 22, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0350: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)


No. 23, IL-2 on 7.7.43/0352: 1 ShAK. Losses in this mission include Kpt. Stepan Poshivalnikov of 800 ShAP, already damaged by flak, belly-landed in German territory but rescued by a mate (may have been the only loss in this engagement)


No. 29, LaGG on 8.7.43/0905 over Ugrim (PQ 61223) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA


No. 30: LaGG on 8.7.43/0910 over Ugrim (PQ 61221) @ 2500m: 40 GIAP, 8 GIAD. Overclaiming, only one loss: Mayor Moisey Tokarev KIA


No. 31, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1805 over Ugrim (PQ 62872) @ 2500m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)


No. 32, Yak-1 on 8.7.43/1825 over Ugrim (PQ 61134) @ 1000m: Soviet report mentions the loss of three Yak-1s to fighters around this time (very likely legitimate victory therefore)


No. 39, "LaGG" on 16.7.43/1415 over PQ 54661 @ 1500m: 18 GIAP and Normandie Niemen Eskadrilya. 18 GIAP lost Serzhant Ivan Stolyarov while Normandie Niemen lost Kpt. Albert Littolff (possibly by Hartmann), Lt. Noel Castelain and M.Lt. Adrien Bernavon. All KIA


No. 52, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1019 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61391) @ 3500m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA


No. 53, Yak-7B on 4.8.43/1030 over Warwarowka/Tomarowka (PQ 35 Ost 61331) @ 2000m: 728 IAP, 265 IAD. At least one loss: Ml. Lt. Ivan Emelyanovich Marya KIA


No. 89: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0607 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged


No. 90: IL-2 on 20.8.43/0608 over Kutelnikowo (PQ 88263) @ 50m: Apparently from 232 ShAP, 7 ShAK. Overclaiming, no losses but two were damaged


No. 94, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 5000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return


No. 95, "LaGG" on 18.9.43/1355 over Zaporozhe (PQ 68392) @ 4000m: Were these the three out of four Yaks from 812 IAP lost in one engagement? Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Kondyakov, Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Sergeevich Rusakov and Serzhant Mikhail Vasilievich Belous all failed to return


No. 96, "LaGG" on 19.9.43/1440 over PQ 58614 @ 1200m: Likely a Yak of 812 IAP. Lt Georgiy Pavlovich Churakov KIA (came down Andreyevka, landed safely but found dead in his aircraft by Soviet troops the following day. Best match by location, timing a little out)


Nos. 98-100, 2 LaGGs and a P-39 on 20.9.43: 288 IAD, 17 VA lost at least one Yak-7 this date


Nos. 106 & 107, P-39s on 26.9.43: 9 GIAD (16, 100 and 104 GIAPs), 8 VA. Misidentification or overclaiming, no losses this day


No. 112, P-39 on 29.9.43/0855 over Zaporozhe (PQ 58682) @ 4000m: Probably Maj. Vladimir Grigorievich Semenishin HSU, 2 x OL, ORB and OPW 1st Class of 104 GIAP KIA


No. 120, P-39 on 2.10.43/1140 over Novo Zaporozhe (PQ 58 581) @ 5000m: possibly Podpolkovnik (?) Arkadiy F Kovachevich of 9 GIAP. Baled out near Melitopol and survived


Nos. 163-165, P-39s on 8.1.44: 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 and 304 IAD). These claims are believed to be against 69 GIAP, 304 IAD. Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev damaged and returned safely (three bullet holes) and one other damaged and bellylanded


No. 192, P-39 on 4.2.44/1140: 129 GIAP. St.Lt. Bekashonk and his wingman (Ml.Lt. Koshel'kov). Overclaiming, no actual loss


No. 193, P-39 on 26.2.44/0908: 129 GIAP. Ml.Lt. Leontiya Zadiraki baled out and returned safely


No. 194, P-39 on 26.2.44/0916: 205 IAD or 304 IAD. Overclaiming, no other losses at this time


No. 195-199, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. Three P-39s lost from a formation of four: Starshiy Leytenant Rybakov baled out safely, Starshiy Leytenant Nikolay Arsenovich Zinchenko (HSU) KIA and Leytenant Mamin also baled out. Ml.Lt. Demchenko's P-39 was slightly damaged and Ml.Lt. Motuzko's was sent to PARM for major repairs after bellylanding 12km S of Kirovograd)


Nos. 200 & 201, P-39s on 26.2.44: 438 IAP. These were likely the P-39 of Leytenant Lusto, only damaged or another claim for Vodolazhskiy (also claimed by Rall and Bachnick)


No. 202: 438 IAP P-39 on 26.2.44/1440. This was likely Leytenant Oleynikov, known to have baled out safely 10 minutes after Vodolazhskiy did


No. 212-217, LaGGs on 5.5.44: One of these may have been Leytenant Ivanov of 402 IAP, 265 IAD. KIA this date, attributed to Lipfert or Hartmann


Nos 249 & 250, P-39s on 4.6.44: During 4th sortie, Hartmann and Birkner were jumped by 2 Aircobras, Hartmann claimed both. They were flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both returned home unscathed


No. 264, P-51C-5-NT Mustang on 24.6.44/0950: 42-103599/42 of 318th FS, 325th FG. Joseph W Harper MIA (Diekmann and Birkner claimed as well)


Nos. 296, 299 & 300, P-39s on 24.8.44: 9 GIAD. Very likely overclaiming, only one loss this date: an aircraft that was separated from its parent formation, pilot MIA


No. 304, Yak-9 on 27.10.44/1016 over Nyregynaza (PQ 18265) @ 2500m: 2912 ("29-292-12")/"29" of 2 AE, 150 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut


305: OVERCLAIM - 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m


No. 306?, La-5 on 1.11.44/1435: Overclaiming. Only loss of an La-5 in Hartmann's area of operations this date is attributable to Hungarian pilot Capt. Laszlo Pottyondy (NOT in 5 VA for sure, no data from 8 VA) 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799


No. 307: OVERCLAIM - 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m



No. 307: OVERCLAIM - 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m


No. 307: Yak-7 on 7.11.44/1335 over PQ 98563 @ 1000m: Possibly HQ of 13 GIAD, serial perhaps 32(292)14. gv.l-t Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov. 6 Yaks at 1400m in the Lajosmizse area against 4 ‘Fw 190’s. Frontal attack, the Yak burst into flames. Pilot baled out WIA


No. 308, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1410: Possibly Yak-9T 0215354 of 179 IAP, 331 IAD, 5 VA. Ml.Lt Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev


309: OVERCLAIM - 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m


310: ??? - 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m Kotlyar Yak-1b other claims in same area and time frame as well


No. 311, Yak-9 on 13.11.44/1425: Possibly 11186 of 149 GIAP, 13 GIAD, 5 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt Aleksandr Titovich Kotlyar


311: OVERCLAIM - 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m


312: OVERCLAIM - 14.11.1944 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m


313: OVERCLAIM - 14.11.1944 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m - Only La-5 loss at 15:20, but soviets: downed by flak and 2 Fw 190s!


314: OVERCLAIM - 16.11.1944 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m


315: ~OK - 16.11.1944 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m


316: OVERCLAIM - 17.11.1944 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m - Hungarian Capt. Pottyondy claimed a Boston at Ocsa where the soviets confirmed their loss, his German wingman, Hartmann claimed another Boston closer to Budapest where soviets confirmed none. NO MORE Boston loss this day, other than a ferry accident at the Romanian border...


No. 317, Boston on 17.11.44/1425 over PQ 98584 @ 2000m: A definite Soviet Boston loss to fighters this date came from 453 BAP, 218 BAD, 5 VA


No. 317: OVERCLAIM - 22.11.1944 11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m



No. 318: OK - 22.11.1944 11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m


No. 319, La-5 on 22.11.44/1145 over PQ 98452 @ 4500m: Possibly 177 GIAP, 14 GIAD, 5 VA. Pilot Kovrigin shot down in dogfight in Hatvan area


Nos. 320 & 321, IL-2s on 22.11.45: Possibly 809 ShAP, 264 ShAD, 5 VA. Overclaiming, only one loss: crew of Polunin-Kuptsov, crashlanded 7km NW of Csany. Repaired and returned to service (attributed by Soviet sources to AAA).


No. 328: OVERCLAIM - 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m


No. 329: OVERCLAIM - 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m (One 486 IAP La-5FN loss (S/N: 39212724, Snagovskii KIA) at 11:55 over Ercsi- too big difference. A recce. La-5 pair against 6 Fw 190s. 2nd La-5FN (S/N: 39211776) of 177 GvIAP (pilot: Vereshak) was downed around 14:05 in dogfight/flak.)


No. 330: OVERCLAIM - 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m

No. 331: ???, probably OVERCLAIM - 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m (2 Yak-9 losses of 513 IAP, but one was a landing accident in soft soil at 13:20 after IL-2 escort (Fokin, Yak-9D, S/N: 19166063), the other one (Fedosov, Yak-9M, S/N: 2515361) was downed at 13:50 by flak. 513 IAP also lost one of their Po-2 messenger biplanes: S/N: 640314, pilot: Durakhov. All 3 pilots were OK. 150 GvIAP lost a Yak-3 after Baracska mission at 1000 m against 20 Fw 190s on landing at their airfield: S/N: 2329218 at 14:50, pilot: Kamanian was unhurt.)


No. 352, Yak on 8.5.45: 2 VA, 5 VA or 17 VA, pilot said to be KIA but possibly actually an overclaim



Hope this helps....
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  #42  
Old 26th May 2016, 16:42
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Thanks Nick,
Great job. Still working on it....
Gabor
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  #43  
Old 26th May 2016, 17:50
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Cheers, Gabor

If you can help with those victory numbers (...especially 307), it would be a huge correction
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  #44  
Old 26th May 2016, 18:55
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Nick,
I go by this list: http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hartmann.html

307?: OVERCLAIM - 1.11.1944 14:35 "LaGG-5" 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m

- Only option this day is La-5F of 177 GvIAP, piloted by гв.мл.л-т Батюня Евгений Иванович. 8 La-5s covered 452 BAP Bostons over Cegléd RR station, Hungary when 6 Hungarian Bf 109s intercepted them. At 13:00 his La-5F (S/N: 39215336, engine: 6504268) got hit, crashlanded on his airfield and was subject to major repair. Batyunya slightly injured. (See one of the entries of this La-5F loss.) Plane was downed by Capt. László Pottyondy. (The Hungarians also downed two soviet 452 BAP A-20G Bostons: 42-53754-Polonskii (a total loss) and 42-53947-Velikanov (crashlanded, later repaired, lost over Slovakia again on April 16, 1945, etc.........)

307?: OVERCLAIM - 7.11.1944 - 7.11.1944 13:35 "Yak-7" 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m

- Only option this day is 150 GvIAP Saratov-built Yak-3 (S/N: 3214, or 32(292)14, engine: 422-6) was lost at 12:19 local time around Lajosmizse, Hungary. Pilot, гв.л-т Пьянков Евгений Андреевич bailed out with badly burned hands. Plane was a total loss. (6 Yak-3s against 4 Fw 190s at 1400 m. Plane belonged to 5 VA, Stab.13 GvIAD - written off in mechanical report by November 11, 1944.) No more options.

Hope this helps.
Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 6th November 2017 at 14:35.
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  #45  
Old 27th May 2016, 01:12
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

This thread is turning out to be historically important. Once finished, has anyone given any thought to a press release? (I'm fairly certain that the results of the work being done by Knusel, HGabor, Nick Hector, Johannes, Nikita Egorov, Nick Beale, FalkeEins, Juha, Maxim1, and all the rest, will garner immediate widespread international attention.)

I know several aviation blog and news editors who would crawl over a mile a glass to interview the experts listed above, and to do a story on this effort and the Hartmann subject, but I will say nothing, and do nothing, until the subject is discussed and approved by all.

How should something like this be handled? (Dimitri Khazanov's work and article should be credited in all of this as he started the original conversation.) One thing is for certain: each and every researcher who posted information on this thread should be credited (if they wish) in any press release.

Also, if these statements are true then something MUST be done to correct the historical record for the general public: "Indeed only 289 of Hartmann's 'victories' were in fact 'officially confirmed' before the German claims system broke down in early 1945. Secondly, only 307 of his supposed claims had even been 'officially' filed before the end of the war," the above noted by FalkeEins: http://falkeeins.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/erich-hartman-352-victories-or-80.html Lipfert, Hackl and Bar ALL had large numbers of outstanding claims that were never officially credited by the end of the war. The Hartmann record alone should not be allowed to reflect never filed claims, nearly 50 of them.

Nick?

Bronc

Last edited by Broncazonk; 27th May 2016 at 04:29.
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  #46  
Old 27th May 2016, 03:04
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Bronc,

A couple of comments.

First and foremost, the fact that Hartmann claimed 352 aerial victories, but that those claims actually resulted in less than 352 enemy aircraft shot down, is perhaps not quite as exciting a discovery as you suggest in your post. Anyone who has done a little digging into victory claims versus actual losses realises that every pilot claimed more enemy aircraft shot down than they actually destroyed. Some were quite optimistic, others less so, but every pilot and aircrew unintentionally overclaimed victories over aircraft, victories over shipping, victories over tanks, etc. The ratio for all theatres, units and pilots is generally two or three claims for one actual loss. Any pilot's 'score' is what he believed he shot down, not what he actually downed. No doubt you already knew this, but I thought the point should be made.

Thus the fact that Hartmann actually shot down less than he claimed is not really news. Hartmann believed he shot down 352 enemy aircraft, he officially claimed them all, and as a result his tally remains 352 victories (even if we can determine that he 'only' actually downed 150 or 220). Ditto for any other pilot who claimed aerial victories during the war.

Quote:
The Hartmann record alone should not be allowed to reflect never filed claims, nearly 50 of them
Official victory claims were being submitted by units right up to the very end of the war (even when surrounded by the Soviets and down to its literal last drops of petrol in East Prussia in late-April 1945, J.G. 51 was still submitting its aerial victory claims to higher headquarters). See the attached, which are Hartmann's claims for 7 March 1945, sent from his Gruppe to Luftflotte 6, and then further up the chain. The idea that the Luftwaffe ceased documenting its activities in 1945 is an oft-repeated myth. In terms of aerial victories, claims were submitted to the appropriate authorities right to the end. What lagged behind was the official confirmation system, which was always a few months behind. In any case, most of the German victory claims submitted were confirmed.

So all of his 352 victory claims were made, submitted to the Gruppe, and then to the Luftflotte and above (except, I assume, for No. 352). As a result, I believe that his official victory claim tally is 352 (or 351?).

It's an interesting subject, and as Nick noted, knowing how many were actually shot down is more important than what either side claimed to have shot down.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
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  #47  
Old 27th May 2016, 04:46
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy View Post
Bronc,

[...] Official victory claims were being submitted by units right up to the very end of the war (even when surrounded by the Soviets and down to its literal last drops of petrol in East Prussia in late-April 1945, J.G. 51 was still submitting its aerial victory claims to higher headquarters). See the attached, which are Hartmann's claims for 7 March 1945, sent from his Gruppe to Luftflotte 6, and then further up the chain. The idea that the Luftwaffe ceased documenting its activities in 1945 is an oft-repeated myth. In terms of aerial victories, claims were submitted to the appropriate authorities right to the end. What lagged behind was the official confirmation system, which was always a few months behind. In any case, most of the German victory claims submitted were confirmed.

So all of his 352 victory claims were made, submitted to the Gruppe, and then to the Luftflotte and above (except, I assume, for No. 352). As a result, I believe that his official victory claim tally is 352 (or 351?).

It's an interesting subject, and as Nick noted, knowing how many were actually shot down is more important than what either side claimed to have shot down.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Thank you Andrew, for adding another piece to this puzzle! Once again, I don't care what the answer is, I just want the right answer. (Or as close to it as we can get.)

My point however is fairness. Perhaps Hartmann submitted 352 claims, but officially he is credited with only (!) 289 or 307 because the war ended before the rest could be confirmed and credited. However, every list in existence states 352 confirmed. On the other hand, if I am not mistaken, Helmut Lipfert submitted 230 claims, but officially he is credited with 203 because the war ended before the rest could be confirmed and credited. And for Lipfert, and every other Luftwaffe pilot, every list in existence states the credited not the claimed. Is this a fair accounting? Why does Hartmann alone receive this preferential treatment?

And to solidly clarify the matter: What was Hartmann's official credited victory total at the end of the war? 289? 307?

Bronc
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  #48  
Old 27th May 2016, 04:55
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Another aspect that should be considered is that, if Hartman's score is placed under such scrutiny, then so to should all the other Luftwaffe aces in the 200+ bracket.

Is the goal to re-write the history books? Or to see who in fact was the highest scoring Luftwaffe ace? Surely not just a Hartman witch hunt.

It would be doing everyone a disservice if Barkhorn, Rall, Kittel, Nowotny, Batz, Rudorffer, Bar, Graf and other's claims were not also given the same intense analysis and match-up to Soviet losses.
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  #49  
Old 27th May 2016, 05:05
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Oxley View Post
Another aspect that should be considered is that, if Hartman's score is placed under such scrutiny, then so to should all the other Luftwaffe aces in the 200+ bracket.

Is the goal to re-write the history books? Or to see who in fact was the highest scoring Luftwaffe ace? Surely not just a Hartman witch hunt.

It would be doing everyone a disservice if Barkhorn, Rall, Kittel, Nowotny, Batz, Rudorffer, Bar, Graf and other's claims were not also given the same intense analysis and match-up to Soviet losses.
In fact we have already talked on Nowotny's early claims and problems with some of Rudorffer's claims. Also on Lipfert's claims and Gabor has wrote on German claims over Hungary in 1944/45 incl. Düttmann's claims etc.

juha
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  #50  
Old 27th May 2016, 06:58
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Re: Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Oxley View Post
Another aspect that should be considered is that, if Hartman's score is placed under such scrutiny, then so to should all the other Luftwaffe aces in the 200+ bracket.

Is the goal to re-write the history books? Or to see who in fact was the highest scoring Luftwaffe ace? Surely not just a Hartman witch hunt.

It would be doing everyone a disservice if Barkhorn, Rall, Kittel, Nowotny, Batz, Rudorffer, Bar, Graf and other's claims were not also given the same intense analysis and match-up to Soviet losses.
Agree whole-heartedly. And I wish I could help. It's a huge job that would be placed on a very limited number of shoulders.

Bronc
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