Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Thank you Maxim1, it's great to see the detailed breakdown! Does this mean you know which specific Bewegungsmeldungen the authors used for the calculation? It would be very interesting to see which units they included.

Paul, in fact, the source for this breakdown is my own work

I have analysed all Bewegungsmeldungen that are available on Michael Holm's site and compiled several Luftwaffe loss tables. As for example:

Luftwaffe losses on Eastern front:

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Mar43 2496 315 291 324 930
Apr43 2813 201 269 214 684
May43 2844 332 286 226 844
Jun43 2955 240 211 202 653
Jul43 3094 682 355 247 1284
Aug43 2752 461 368 306 1135
Sept43 2432 365 252 341 958
Oct43 2322 298 257 285 840
Nov43 2353 195 170 185 550
Dec43 2464 137 118 141 396
Total: ---- 3226 2577 2471 8274

Specifically for day-fighter units (Stab, II. and III./JG 3; Stab, II., III. and 13(Z)./JG 5; I./JG 26; JG 51 (excepting II./JG 51); JG 52; JG 54 (excepting III./JG 54))

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Mar43 478 97 131 27 195
Apr43 526 43 103 58 204
May43 570 103 100 60 263
Jun43 585 75 62 36 173
Jul43 529 204 131 37 372
Aug43 464 129 130 38 297
Sept43 420 93 73 40 206
Oct43 425 83 91 43 217
Nov43 415 52 47 47 146
Dec43 416 47 40 21 108
Total: ---- 926 908 407 2241

These figures are not complete though, because Bewegungsmeldungen data are partially or entirely missing for some units (13.(slow)/JG 52, NSGr 1, NSGr 2 etc.)

Regards,
Maksim

[Maxim1]

Here is what I have for other units on Eastern front:

Night-fighters (IV./NJG 5; NJG 100; NJG 200; NJ Schw. Luftflotte 1; NJ Schw. Luftflotte 6):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 58 1 5 2 8
Aug43 54 1 12 9 22
Total: -- 2 17 11 30

Zerstoerer units (I. and 10.(N)/ZG 1; ZG 2):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 66 14 5 12 31
Aug43 7 0 0 0
Total: -- 14 5 12 31

Bomber units (III., IV. and 9.(Eis)/KG 1; KG 3; KG 4 (excepting I. and IV./KG 4); KG 27 (excepting IV./KG 27); I./KG 30; KG 51 (excepting I./KG 51); KG 53 (excepting IV. and 15./KG 53); KG 55 (excepting IV./KG 55); I./KG 100; Fliegerfuehrer Nord-Ost):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 766 174 79 74 327
Aug43 713 97 100 107 304
Total: --- 271 179 181 631

Sturzkampf units (StG 1; StG 2; III./StG 3; StG 5; StG 77; 9./StG 151):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 448 115 38 66 219
Aug43 404 103 53 66 222
Total: --- 218 91 132 441

Ground-attack units (SchG 1; 4. and 8.(Pz)/SchG 2; Fuehrer der Pz.Jg.Staffeln):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 165 59 40 9 108
Aug43 114 48 13 21 82
Total: --- 107 53 30 190

Reconnaissance units (AGr 11; 1. and 2.(H)/12; AGr 13; 3.(H) and 4.(F)/14; AGr 21; AGr 22; AGr 23; AGr 31; AGr 32; 2. and 4.(H)/33; AGr 41; AGr 100; 4.(F)/121; 4. and 5.(F)/122; 1., 2. and 3.(F)/ObdL; Stab NAGr 1; 1./NAGr 2; NAGr 4; Stab NAGr 11; Stab NAGr 12; Nachtkette NAGr 15; 1., 2., 3. and 4.(F)/Nacht; 2./NAGr 16; 1.(F)/124; Fernaufklaerungskette Lappland; Stab NAGr 9; Wekusta 1):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 506 56 41 33 130
Aug43 458 61 44 43 148
Total: --- 117 85 76 278

Maritime units (3. Minensuchstaffel; Stab, 1. and 3./SAGr 125; SAGr 127):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 58 0 4 6 10
Aug43 60 1 5 12 18
Total: -- 1 9 18 28

Transport units (I./TG 1; TG 2 (excepting II./TG 2); TG 3; TG 4 (excepting IV./TG 4); Tr.Sta Fliegerfuehrer Nord-Ost; Tr.Sta I. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta IV. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta VIII. Fliegerkorps; Tr.Sta des Feldluftgau 25; Tr.Sta Luftflotte 6):

Month A/c on strength Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total
Jul43 496 58 11 2 71
Aug43 471 22 13 21 56
Total: --- 80 24 23 127

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

I should have thought when you're discussing a battle/campaign that losses might be the aggregate number of aircraft that the units engaged needed to replace during the period concerned — essentially anything that you can't patch up locally and return to action before the battle/campaign is over.

I agree with you, Nick, but with a caveat. Since the campaign is a part of the war as a whole, it is very significant for the outcome of the war how many aircraft are total losses and therefore leave the order of battle permanently. I suspect, although I cannot prove it, that the Luftwaffe wrote off a greater percentage of damaged aircraft than the RAF or USAAF, because of the weakness of its repair infrastructure. In consequence, Germany began losing the air war even before the superiority of the Allies in productive capacity became overwhelming.

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

The database is complete for JG and SG units, or at least as complete as the original Luftwaffe documents are. In the late 44-45 period, most of the German fighters were on the Western front, and suffered far more losses there. On the Eastern front, there were more Fw 190s SG units than Jagdgruppen.

Laurent, thank you for making that clear. I understand that most Luftwaffe fighters were in the West during this period, but that does not wholly account for the difference in losses. Both JG and SG units in the East lost aircraft at a much lower rate than those in the West, according to the database. This is somewhat surprising in view of the fact that this was a time of successful large-scale Soviet offensives. Could it be that the German units flew very few sorties and largely avoided air combat? That may be a very broad generalisation, but it is strange that the Eastern front units never reported particularly significant losses in air combat, or indeed from any other form of enemy action.

Originally Posted by Maxim1

Paul, in fact, the source for this breakdown is my own work

I have analysed all Bewegungsmeldungen that are available on Michael Holm's site and compiled several Luftwaffe loss tables.
Regards,
Maksim

Maksim, thank you for your work! So you provided these figures to Khazanov and Medved?

The lists you provided raise interesting questions. I presume you relied on Michael Holm's data for the location of Luftwaffe units. That should introduce significant errors, since Henry de Zeng and Douglas Stankey have demonstrated in their books that Holm's location data is often erroneous and incomplete. That's not to criticise you, since Hooton's data is from the same source and should suffer from exactly the same problem! There is of course also the problem of monthly data being provided in the tables, which does not account for some units losing aircraft in different theatres in the same month. Be that as it may, the data is still very interesting. I'll be back within the hour with a comparison of your monthly data to Hooton's. The data, from the same source, vary by quite a bit!

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Maxim1

Here is what I have for other units on Eastern front:

And below are Hotoon's monthly loss totals for the Eastern Front for May 1942 to December 1944 inclusive. Apologies for the length, but I hope you appreciate the information!

Maksim, I've compared your figures with Hooton's for the relevant months of 1943. The data is in the second table in this post. Your numbers are consistently higher. I think that is because Ted Hooton somehow found a method of refining the data from the Bewegunsmeldungen. I wonder how he did it.

Table 1:
Month Year EA Accident Total Ratio of EA to Accident
May 1942 229 227 456 1.01
June 1942 256 234 490 1.09
July 1942 317 262 579 1.21
August 1942 392 265 657 1.48
September 1942 346 208 554 1.66
October 1942 217 160 377 1.36
November 1942 204 186 390 1.10
December 1942 225 130 355 1.73
January 1943 264 111 375 2.38
February 1943 226 160 386 1.41
March 1943 250 220 470 1.14
April 1943 147 168 315 0.88
May 1943 298 222 520 1.34
June 1943 209 170 379 1.23
July 1943 554 283 837 1.96
August 1943 386 296 682 1.30
September 1943 307 205 512 1.50
October 1943 272 199 471 1.37
November 1943 179 142 321 1.26
December 1943 109 92 201 1.18
January 1944 235 216 451 1.09
February 1944 152 155 307 0.98
March 1944 197 228 425 0.86
April 1944 352 278 630 1.27
May 1944 208 267 475 0.78
June 1944 238 194 432 1.23
July 1944 562 418 980 1.34
August 1944 386 270 656 1.43
September 1944 209 121 330 1.73
October 1944 316 186 502 1.70
November 1944 79 108 187 0.73
December 1944 135 226 361 0.60


Table 2:
Month Year EA Accident Total M Total M bigger by
March 1943 250 220 470 606 136
April 1943 147 168 315 470 155
May 1943 298 222 520 618 98
June 1943 209 170 379 451 72
July 1943 554 283 837 1037 200
August 1943 386 296 682 829 147
September 1943 307 205 512 617 105
October 1943 272 199 471 555 84
November 1943 179 142 321 365 44
December 1943 109 92 201 255 54

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Paul Thompson

Maksim, thank you for your work! So you provided these figures to Khazanov and Medved?

Well, no. It seems like Khazanov and Medved have made their own calculations, using the same source.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Maxim1

Well, no. It seems like Khazanov and Medved have made their own calculations, using the same source.

That is strange, because given the uncertainty over which units to include in calculations, there should be at least some discrepancy in independently compiled data. Are you sure you didn't post these tables somewhere else, where one of the two authors could have seen it?

In any case, suddenly a big question mark has appeared over all this data. There is a link to similar threads at the bottom of this one, which is the source of the question. In the "Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia" thread dating from 2005, Christer Bergström wrote that "The website you refer to lists all aircraft above 10 % damage degree." The website in question is Michael Holm's. However, this raises the problem of the significance of the "repair" category. How can it exist if the "combat" and "non-combat" categories include damaged, as well as destroyed, aircraft? Can anyone answer this question?

[Kutscha]

Wouldn't 'in repair' mean a/c that are having maintenance done on them.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Kutscha

Wouldn't 'in repair' mean a/c that are having maintenance done on them.

We need someone who knows to provide the answer to that, but I would suggest that if they are in the "Abgang" column, they would be leaving the unit for repairs, not undergoing routine maintenance.

[Kutscha]

Reparatur is in the Zugang (received) column.

Überholung is in the Abgang (sent out) column.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Kutscha

Reparatur is in the Zugang (received) column.

Überholung is in the Abgang (sent out) column.

Kutscha, granted, but they must mean one and the same thing, since in both cases aircraft come in from or are sent to an organisation outside the unit itself.