Weeping Raven JG 51 armour plate

[rhinogobius]

Hi, I have this piece of armour from JG51 showing some of their kills during Battle of France / Battle of Britain. I'm researching this as have had in collection for around 30yrs and thought about time I did. 1st thing I would love to know is what aircraft and what part the armour is likely to have come from it's 10mm thick if that helps and as heavy as hell. Also if anyone can help identify the planes / pilots involved in the marked kills or has any paper records or photos relating to JG51 at this time.
kills as follows:
Spitfire 5.5.40
Curtiss 11.5.40
Hurricane 23.5.40
Swordfish 29.5.40
Hurricane 2.6.40
Blenheim 9.6.40
Spitfire 18.6.40
Spitfire 20.6.40
Hurricane 13.7.40
Hurricane 27.7.40
Spitfire 31.7.40
Hurricane 14.8.40

Any help with research appreciated.

[markjsheppard]

Hi

Interesting photo and claims.

Had a quick look through The Battle of France - Then and Now by Peter
Cornwell.

Hurricanes, Spitfires and Blenheims were difficult to tie in. Interestingly 4 Swordfish were shot down and two others damaged on the 29th May 1940. Unfortunately or interestingly all claims were by 3./JG54 and not JG51.

23.5.40 Two Hurricanes claimed by 1./JG51 - Fw Bär and Fw Oglogek (Hurricanes of 253 Sqn).

2.6.40 Hurricane Claimed by Oblt Priller and Uffz Haase (6./JG51) - correct unit - II Gruppe JG51.

Nothing else seems to tie up. Perhaps Peter can add more.

regards

MS

[harrison987]

Hi!

Armour for sure is not Me109 or Fw190. I suspect, due to the theme, that it is from an RAF bird...



Mike

[Andy Saunders]

What you have is the pilots head armour from a Hurricane.

I am sorry to say that I very much suspect it may not be all that it purports to be. I stand to be corrected, but I'd even hazard a guess as to the identity of the artist!

[Peter Cornwell]

I agree with Andy. The claims detailed bear no relation to known Lw claims filed by II./JG51 or any other unit for that matter. But that Swordfish is a nice touch. All is not lost for such 'original' homages produced by Alf Batt can attract their own market. Caveat Emptor.

[rhinogobius]

Alf Batt ? please explain more , who is / was he and does this relate to the 70's when this item was purchased.

[John Vasco]

How can I put this succinctly? I have seen a photo of an excellent piece of crumpled metal with the emblem of Erprobungsgruppe 210 on it. Looked the real deal, but was a complete fake... What the two previous posters are alluding to, I believe, is that the provenance of the item may not be all that it is claimed to be.

[rhinogobius]

Thanks for responses interesting to hear views on how authentic it is or not as the case may be. Now at least I know it's hurricane armor, interestingly i have found a picture showing JG51 pilots examining Hurricane for souvenirs May 1940 , which is the month the dates on this item begin.

[markjsheppard]

Andy/Peter

I was also wondering about the origins. Never seen victories on an armour plate. Interesting idea though. The squadron enblem and markings seem well painted.

Was not going to question the originality as had no evidence to support it.

regards

Mark

[Andy Saunders]

As Peter suggested, and I was alluding to, the likely artist was the late Alf Batt. 1970's would be about right, I'd say.

Alf was a clever forger (no kinder way to put it!) although, to be fair, he did not - as far as I know - produce items such as these to pass them off as original. He was always up-front about what they were. The problem was (or is!) that these have now changed hands a few times and have become "genuine" or "original" items. Sometimes, but not always, he left a signature which was simply a little black or white painted "X" on the reverse of the piece, so worth looking for that. Its absence does not rule it out as a Batt piece, though.

I will ask around. If this is one of his (and I am pretty sure it is!) then someone may well remember it. Shame is, though, that the armour plate itself probably has an interesting history in its own right, but that is now lost!

Its hard to tell from the photos, but it almost looks as if the artistry is OVER the rust? A give-away was often a mistake like this - or letting paint run into rivet holes or crash damage!!