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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi Guys
Another strange caser for us to investigate. Georg-Peter Eder has been widely credited with at least twelve Jet kills, jet evidence is completely lacking, and lacking where there should be some. Ekdo.262 became Kom.Now, which became Jg7, the mikrofilms cover the period 5th August 1944 until 3rd December 1944, yet absolutely no Eder claims are amongst them, yet we are informed that he was injured out of the war on 22nd January 1945...…..giving a period of fifty day to make his twelve claims! Firstly was Eder truly actually injured out on 22nd January 1945....One for Matti here> Secondly personally I believe he was a honest claimer, but that's my feeling, can that be proved. Attached is his abschusselist with witnesses, these vary, and sometimes two per kill, also very accurate crash-sites as these come from his abscussemeldung themselves. What goes against this is his association with JG2, though as we have seen before JG2 pilots were not all making false claims. So in short, was he wounded out on 22nd January 1945, was he honest. If he was dis-honest in his claiming(think of Walther Dahl) then perhaps the twelve jet kills come from himself, and then I guess we can disregard the figure. Kind Regards JohannesAttachment 17494 |
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
I've said it before, I'll say it again.
Dahl is not as "dishonest" as you make him out to be. Sure, you have provided evidence that his final claims are likely fictional, but there are instances where his claims DO stand up: Walther Dahl 22.6.41/0430 "I-18" W of Lemberg @ 1500m 23 or 28 IAP. Details pending 8.8.41/1330 DB-3 E of Majewo 11 DBAP? They suffered at least 5 losses, crews of Ml.Lt. A I Pykhtin, Serzhant A Evdokimov, Ml.Lt. P T Krashenninikov, Ml.Lt. Nikolay Ilyich Alimbarashvili and Serzhant N I Mineev all failed to return. Another possibility is 8 DBAP, crew of Lt. Ivan Yakovlevich Korovin which was definitely lost to fighters 24.8.41/0855 "I-180" S of Zaporozhe 162 IAP? They lost Ml.Lt. Andrey Panteleevich Tsaplagin KIA this date 14.9.41/0605 I-153 "Tchaika" Jelesawetowka/Mironovka area 44 IAD Staff. This was probably claimed against Leytenant Grigoriy Kotscha. Overclaiming, as he managed to escape (also appears to have been claimed by Gollob) 19.9.41/1357 SB-3 Kotschubjewka Possibly 316 ORAP. Crew of Ml.Lt. Yaroslav Leonidovich Bratolyubov Unconfirmed 2.4.42/1530 Hurricane ("Spitfire") Malta BV174 of 229 sqn. P/O Andrews returned to base with damage 26.8.42/0830 Yak-7B NW of Stalingrad @ 800m (Wilcke and Wessling claimed as well) Were these claimed against 900 IAP? They lost Lt. Viktor Alekseyevich Saburov KIA 7.9.42/1536 La-5 SW of Achtuba (PQ 49283) @ 2500m 3 GIAP or 27 IAP, 287 IAD, 8 VA. Definitely 3 La-5s lost this date 19.9.42/1144 Yak 1km SE of Kotluban @ 500m 8 VA (1 Yak-7B lost) or 16 VA (6 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA losses include Pavel Nikolaevich Bulaev of 520 IAP KIA and Ivan Yakovlevich Buldygin of 581 IAP 24.9.42/1103 and 1109 2 x Yak-1s Stalingrad – Dubovka 8 VA (no known losses) or 16 VA (8 Yak-1s lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA's losses include Mikhail Stepanovich Bubnov of 43 IAP, Serzhant Peter Korneevich Sednev of 520 IAP and Ilya Mikhaylovich Yuzhakov (AE CO) of 812 IAP. All KIA 27.9.42/1603 Stalingrad @ 4500m 8 VA (1 IL-2 lost this date) or 16 VA (no known losses this date). 8 VA's loss was 944 ShAP, Serzhant Pavel Vasilyevich Sytov (Wilcke also claimed, so one must be an overclaim) 14.10.42/0707 and 0715 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 20-25km NW of Stalingrad Likely 245 ShAP. Losses include Evgeny Filippovich Baranov POW (liberated in January 1943). 954 ShAP lost Kapitan Arkady Ivanovich Buzev (AE CO) KIA There were about 5 claims in total 17.10.42/0915 Yak-1 50km NE of Stalingrad @ 2000m 512 IAP. Starshiy Leytenant Ignatiy Biryukov 25.10.42/1039 and 1421 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks Krasnoarmejsk – Stalingrad 686, 807 and 945 ShAP, 206 ShAD? (definitely in action this day). Losses include MSgt Sudarkin of 945 ShAP, forcelanded 5km S of Prishchevka (already damaged by Flak, finished off by a Bf109). 944 ShAP lost St. Serzhant Nikolay Sergeevich Smirnov KIA 26.10.42/1402, 1407, 1408 and 1412 4 x IL-2 Sturmoviks Stalingrad – Beketovka Day's IL-2 losses include 206 ShAD's Sgt. Malyshev KIA over Sarpinskiy Island. 686 ShAP, 807 ShAP, 811 ShAP and 945 ShAP all in action this date. 505 ShAP lost Serzhant Alexei Nikolaevich Sipigin KIA this date 807 ShAP lost Pavel Dmitrievich Shurigin in an alleged taran this date 27.10.42/1000 Yak-1 12km E of Krasnaja Sloboda Day's losses in the Stalingrad sector include 11 IAP's Vitaliy Vasilievich Serkov KIA. Same unit lost Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Titov on IL-2 escort mission and definitely to fighters was Nikolay Aleksandrovich Shershilov baled out failed to return 30.11.42/0810 and 0812 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks Pitomnik – Kotluban 622 ShAP, 214 ShAD, 8 VA definitely in action over Pitomnik in the morning losing 6 planes and 5 crews including Kapitan Dobrokhotov and Serzhant Pyatiletov. 5 more were seriously damaged 15.4.43/1629 and 1630 2 x LaGG-3s Kuban bridgehead At least 9 LaGG-3s lost this day. 4 from 267 IAP, 2 from 979 IAP, 2 from 926 IAP and 1 from 269 IAP more specific info is impossible due to large number of claims/losses 29.1.44/1107 B-17 Flying Fortress Mannheim-Bastogne Definitely lost to fighters around this time was 42-31486 of 612th BS, 401st BG. 2/Lt. John Tannahill Jr and 7 others KIA, remaining 2 crewmen both POW 24.2.44/1312 2 x B-17 Flying Fortress HSS One of these was very likely B-17G-25-BO Flying Fortress 42-31666 "Poncho Thalken" of 96th BS, 2nd BG (damaged by fighter, ditched in the sea) 24.2.44/1320 P-38G-5-LO Lightning 30km SE of Steyr @ 5000m Likely 42-12815 of 95th FS, 82nd FG. George Milton Gearhard baled out near Windischgarten after combat with fighter identified as Fw190 24.4.44/1330 B-17F-115-BO Flying Fortress Augsburg area @ 6500m Most likely one of several claims for 42-30730/WW- of 369th BS, 306th BG. 2/Lt. David B Ramsey and crew all POW 24.4.44/1345 P-51B-5-NA Mustang near Muenchen @ 6500m This one likely one of several claims for 43-7103/OS-O of 357th FS, 355th FG. 2/Lt. Howard K Hillman KIA 15.8.44/1145 B-17 Flying Fortress Daun-Kyllberg area (PQ PO to QO) @ 6500m First one to be attacked was 42-31183/VK-Y "Bad Penny" of 358th BS, 303rd BG. 2/Lt. Arthur L Goss and one other KIA, remaining 7 crewmen all POW (this appears to be one of at least 6 claims for her) 15.8.44/1146 B-17G-5-BO Flying Fortress Koblenz area (PQ PP-PO-QO) @ 6500m Definitely down at 1146 was 42-31224/VK-F "Helen Heaven" 2/Lt. Samuel C Smithy and 4 others POW, remaining 4 crewmen all KIA 13.9.44 B-17 Flying Fortress (rammed) Believed to be overclaiming, possibly fiction. No known loss by ramming 6.10.44/1205 B-17G-40-VE Flying Fortress Naunen-Brandenburg (PQ FF-FG-GF) @ 8000m 551st BS, 385th BG. Was this 42-98010/Q of2/Lt. Deloy Taylor and crew all KIA except one man POW. Or possibly 43-38217/P of 2/Lt. Raymond W Tuley and 5 others KIA, 3 POW or 43-38430/N of 1/Lt. Donald J Andreas and 3 others KIA, 5 POW 26.4.45 P-51D Mustang Near Dilligen Was this 44-72967 of 354th FG? - Appears to be last Mustang lost in ETO, apparently attributed to Flak |
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Great to see you at work Johannes on this. I always felt Eder had one of the most suspicious tally (past August 1944).
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi Nick
Thing is that unless the whole staffel is dis-honest then honest or not your probably not get away with anything dodgy, however if your with the Stab of a unit your probably only flying as a Rotte, and your likely to be high ranking......then the opportunity arises! Therefore Dahl is unlikely to have been able to be dis-honest even if it was within him to be so while a lower rank. The fictional Abschusseliste could have been made-up by himself or somebody else, however in his 1961 publication he states 133 victories, which would have made him top claimer during 1945......what are the chances of that? Most of those we have proven to be dodgy are top scoring, and usually high ranking pilots, but the system does not allow them to do this alone, therefore they must bribe their witness with something, promotion, a claim of their own, booze, money, decorations(shared overclaiming would lead to this). With Eder he earlier flew with JG51 which was generally more honest than JG2, and his rank lower, actually it seems that the Geschwader itself was influenced by whoever was Kommodore at the time when it comes to honesty i.e Wick JG2, Molders JG53/JG51 and Galland JG26. I have never really taken to Galland, yet guess I have got to respect his honesty really! So with Eder I have yet to be convinced of his dis-honesty. Kind Regards Johannes |
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
I have always tried to avoid such honest/dishonest arguments but with JG 2, for the BofB, Wick plus I Gruppe claimed 207, II Gruppe 61, III Gruppe 17......Common denominator?
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi Chris
John Foreman has always thought that JG2 got away with so much as it was the "Richthofen" Geschwader i.e using it's name. More likely is that because of it's location many of it's claims were alleged over water, but your analysis would suggest that if all Gruppen were at full strength then III Gruppe was honest and I Gruppe dis-honest, of course each pilot is different. It's the same with many Geschwader I./JG 54, 7th and 9th Staffel(especially the 9th) JG 52, II./JG 5(especially 6th Staffel. If under the same circumstances of combat, why should one Geschwader out perform the others by so much. I have always thought that Meimberg and Seeger seemed honest, though both flew with 3./JG 2 at some point, whereas I always thought that Johann Schmid a bit dodgy, but did he continue within JG26? Kind Regards Johannes |
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hello,
relating to Georg-Peter Eder´s "jet evidence": Eder joined Kommando Nowotny in October 1944, made his very first Me262-flight with this unit and for example witnessed the deadly crash of Olt Paul Bley with a Me262 shortly after taking off from Achmer on 28.10.44. After disbandment of the Kommando (due to the dead of Major Nowotny on 8. November 1944) and establishment of JG7, Eder became Staffelkapitän of 9./JG7 until 22.February (not January) 1945. On this day during an attack on a bomber formation, the left Jumo004 engine was hit by counter-fire and he had to bail out from his burning Me262 (WNr. 110 778). Due to contact with his plane´s fuselage or tail he suffered injuries to his head and left leg, which were severe enough that he was hospitalized until the end of war. According to the Manfred Boehme´s book "Jagdgeschwader 7, die Chronik eines Me 262 Geschwaders 1944/45" there is a RLM document confirming that Eder achieved 11 victories between 01.10.1944 and 01.01.1945 with a total of then 64 victories (see page 84 in the book). All of Eder´s personal photos and late war notes were "liberated" by his interrogator after war. Regards, Karl |
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
The attached ULTRA suggests that Eder was detached from his unit at the end of November.
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Quote:
Do you have combat reports allowing to recreate events leading to particular vicotries? I am afraid not. Therefore having only partial evidence I find your comments about honesty or dishonesty a bit abusive. I find a number of eg. JG 26 confirmed victories being not supported by Allied data because the Allied aircraft were lost to another reason. An in depth research would require a detailed analysis of all combats, claims and losses, and this is virtually impossible. We also do not know, how many claims of eg. JG 26 were rejected on the initial stage, and only that would give us a fair comparison. On the other hand it looks JG 2 fared much better in Normandy rather than JG 26. |
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi Franek
I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system. My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected. My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming. Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter. Kind Regards Johannes |
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