ors files?

[thorthemighty]

Hi guys,


Hopefully someone can be of assistance. Does anybody have copies of the Bomber Command Operational Research Section files?
I am interested in obtaining information about lost and damaged 101 squadron aircraft from the period September 44 to Januray 45, as well as raid reports for a number of specific ops during this period (I will provide the list if anybody can help). I think the files I want to get my hands on are (a) AIR 14/3460, (b) the raid reports (Forms Y) and (c) AIR 14/3227 (Jan '45), all of which are stored at TNA in Kew, London. Any assistance greatly appreciated.


Thank you in advance,



Thor

[thorthemighty]

Just to clarify part of my request for ors files. I am trying to get hold of the ors files regarding the loss of 101 Squadron Lancaster LM472 (my great uncle was the pilot).
It was apparently recorded as a "friendly fire" incident by the ors (which I believe is in the AIR 14/3460 file I mentioned in my post) and I wish to find out WHY they came to this conclusion, as the brother of one of the other crew lost has been researching and is in contact with various people who are also researching/have researched the loss of the a/c including germans and czechs and there is compelling evidence that suggests that it WASN'T a friendly fire incident and a good candidate for the German fighter pilot possibly/probably responsible has been identified. But the question still remains as to why the ors came to the conclusions it did. What corroborated or led to such a conclusion?

As I said before any assistance greatly appreciated!!


Thanks again,


Thor

[RodM]

Hi Thor,

according to 'Summary of Aircraft Lost or Damaged on Operations, No. 51', the ORS wrote the the following cause by hand against LM472, originally simply listed as missing - "m/g fire from Lanc". (source: The National Archives, AIR 14/3460).

My understanding of this is that the BC ORS endeavoured to establish, where possible, the cause of loss for every aircraft destroyed on operations. At the end of the war, Loss of Bomber Aircraft questionnaires were circulated to returning PoWs and the answers to these questionnaires, in combination with other evidence, was used to establish the causes of loss, which were added the the Summaries by hand.

While the actual Loss of Bomber Aircraft questionnaires, if still preserved, are most certainly classified (because they have not been released to The National Archives), a seperate questionnaire, completed by F/O Knight RAAF, the sole survivor of LM472, states "2 starboard engines and wing set on fire from another aircraft (sic). Aircraft exploded about 2 minutes later" and "1) Aircraft was set on fire by fire from another aircraft." Knight also indicates that the fire started at 17,000 feet and the explosion of the aircraft at 10,000 ft. (source: Australian War Memorial, AWM54/ 779/3/129: PoW and Internees - Examinations and Interrogations: Statements by repatriated or released Prisoners of War (RAAF) taken at No 11 PDRC, Brighton, England, 1945)

From the Casualty files of W/O Collins RAAF, a letter from the OC 101 Sqdn to 1 Group HQ states: "This aircraft was the only one missing from this attack which took place in 10/10 cloud, tops 4000 ft. Flak was described as moderate in barrage form. No crew reported seeing any aircraft in trouble but 101/K reported whilst in target area at 2238.5 hours that a parachute was seen descending some 4000 ft below them." From the Casualty File of P/O Hart RAAF, the MRES Investigation Report states: "At about 2330 hours (sic) on the 15th January (sic), several formations of aircraft were observed over GEILSDORF, flying in a westerly direction. Some minutes later a single, burning aircraft (believed to have been hit by Flak) was seen approaching the village. It crashed at 800 metres South-West of the village. Seven members of the crew were killed; the eighth, Sgt. KNIGHT, R.A.A.F., was injured and taken to the Military Hospital in PLAUEN." (sources: A705 Casualty Files, National Archives of Australia)

The crash site at Geilsdorf, would be roughly at 50 Deg 25' 20' N; 12 Deg 01' 42" E. This would suggest that the aircraft was lost on the second last leg into the target, although the statement above from the MRES Investigation Report would suggest the aircraft was on the first homeward leg out of the target (but well north of the intended track). It should be kept in mind that witness statements obtained by the MRES were sometimes taken 2-3 years after the event.

Unfortunately, no Form Z for 1 Group for the night of 16-17 January 1945 appears to have been preserved at TNA. The attached PDF contains the relevant details from the 5 Group Form Z (source: AIR 14/3227, The National Archives).

Unfortunately, nothing conclusive can be garnered from the Form Z (I've highlighted the entries for aircraft seen to be shot down). The only claim was over Brux, and it is difficult, if not impossible to know if any crew reported firing upon a Lancaster during the Brux raid because the fact may not have been transmitted in the Form Z or could've been a 1 Group aircraft, where the Form Z isn't preserved. The BC ORS plotted the sightings of aircraft seen destroyed from the 5 Group Form Z on a large map as a part of it's analysis. The two closest reports in terms of distance from the crash site of LM472 are the 22.10 report of a fighter seen shot down some considerable distance to port (which, on the outward leg by the Brux raiders could relate to an incident during the Zeitz raid further to the north) and the 22.23 report of a 4-engined a/c seen on fire off the port bow; this sighting being made some 50 km to the N.E. of where LM472 came down. It is possble that none of the sightings reported by 5 Group relate to LM472.

Thus, nothing I've presented here gives any indication on why the BC ORS chose to classify the loss of LM472 as friendly fire, although I would suspect that they had some evidence to reach such a conclusion.

In terms of there being a German night fighter claim being identified, would you mind sharing the details? I have a reasonably comprehensive, although incomplete list of claims, and none of them point to LM472.

Cheers

Rod

[Icare9]

Certainly the "claim" has a resemblance to what happened with LM472.

It's the first time I've seen that type of report.
Phew! The air was busy that night! 109's. 190, Me110's Me 410, Ju88's what wasn't there!!
It also shows that many aircraft didn't fire, even when aircraft seen only 50 yards away.... Sometimes it was safer to hope they hadn't seen you rather than open fire and show everyone where you were, unless directly under attack......

Nice work, Rod, enjoyed all that info!

[RodM]

Hi Icare9,

thanks for the reply.

The claim doesn't seem to fit with other known details about LM742: (a) claimants stated that port wing of Ju88 was on fire, whereas survivor of LM742 stated starboard engines and wing was set on fire, (b) the location (Brux) at the time of the claim would place the combat further to the north-east (by near 100 km) of the crash site of LM742, while the heading (109 deg True) would suggest that the aircraft was on the run up to target or over the target at the time of the combat.

A sighting of an aircraft exploding on the ground in the Brux area at 22.35 hrs, may have been used to confirm the claim, but this is conjecture. Some of the other sightings of losses could also relate to the attack of Zeitz. The closest known Luftwaffe loss (at least that I know of) occurred some 140 km to the N.W. of Brux.

An important point about the crash site of LM742 is that it was around 10 km north of the intended track and actually astride the turning point onto the last leg into target of the bomber force attacking Zeitz (this turning point was at 5025N; 1200E, whereas LM742 crashed at 5025N; 1201E). Parts of the two bomber streams would have been flying parallel to one another for a time. As far as I am aware, no air combat claims were submitted by aircraft of the Zeitz force. The fact that the 1 Group Form Z is not preserved with the others for this night may be a critical loss of information.

The map attached to the BC Intercept Tactics report indicates no reported combats or attacks along the tracks of the routes flown by the Brux and Zeitz bomber streams in the area where LM742 crashed.

Cheers

Rod

Addenda - upon checking the air combat report database at the National Archives website, it seems that a combat report for a 57 Sqdn (5 Group, attacked Brux) aircraft relating to 16 Jan 1945 is held. No such claim is mentioned in the 5 Group Form Z, nor is it mentioned in the BC Interception Tactics Report...the report could just be a pro forma combat report, mentioning a sighting of an enemy aircraft with no claim.

[thorthemighty]

Hi there Rod and Icare9,

Thanks for all the info. great help. I've had a quick look through it and there are a number of things I'll certainly follow up on!!

To add to the information about the night...here is the timeline I have been given by Ray Collins (I hope he doesn't mind me employing it here). He got at least some of the information from Radavan Helt who is from Most/Brux and has done a lot of research into the incident...including German records...up until 2007 he had written two books on the airwar over Brux and is currently researching for a third, specifically about the night of the 16th Jan 45...(note: I haven't edited it at all)

Timeline:


7.55

Lancaster LM 472, code SR-V2. With a crew of 8, left 101 Squadron base at Ludford Magna, Lincolnshire GB. They were part of 231 Lancasters & 6 Mosquitoes, from RAF Bomber Command, Nos1 & 5 Groups, on a bombing raid on a synthetic oil plant at Brux, Czechoslovakia (Seven planes from 101 Squadron, some equipped with ABC Radio jamming devices)
They were due to bomb Brux between 22.30 & 22.59, 16 January 1945

Due to return to base 02.47 hours 17 January 1945-1 Lancaster lost.

On this bombing raid, they were combined with another formation of aircraft on a bombing raid to Zeitz.-328 Lancasters from 1,.6, &.8 groups. (12 aircraft from 101 squadron included) on Synthetic oil at Braunkohle-Benzin near Leipzig-10 Lancasters lost

On the same night, there was also a bombing raid to be conducted on Magdeburg “Area Raid”- 320 Halifaxe,44 Lancasters, & 7 mosquito from 4.6.8 groups-17 Halifax lost

The Brux/Zeitz force, in the same formation, crossed into France first, followed by the Magdeburg force

The German flight controllers had serious problems as to which force to attack, the southern force-Brux/Zeitz or Northern force-Magdeburg.

20.15
LM472 was over Luxemburg, and German Controllers ordered Fighters to attack in this area. They missed the bombing formation

20.35
LM472 crossed the Rhine near Koblenz

20.50
Controllers sent fighters to the Koblenz area. Again they missed the bombers, who had now turned easterly towards Frankfort area.

21.00
Elements of NJG 1 came into contact with the Brux/Zeitz force,

21.15
A Lancaster bomber, NN 712 -12 Squadron, with Zeitz group, was shot down at Budingen by Hptm. D. Schmidt (7./NJG 1 )

21.55
Over North Bavaria, the Brux group split to the Southeast towards the Vogtland area and the Zeitz group Northeast to their target

21.56
Fw Heinrich Lahmann (from 9./NJG 1) claimed he “got” a Halifax, Zeitz group, (but unconfirmed) and had to break off (on fire) because of gunfire from another Lancaster

22.00
Two Canadian Bombers (PB 402-405 Squadron and KB 850-434 Squadron) from Zeitz group collided and exploded ,over Pfaffenhausen-There was no flak fire in this area.

Night Fighter, Obstlt. Walter Borchers was based between the aerodromes of Erfurt and Altenburg, although the German fighters were ordered to attack the Zeitz raiders , because of his fuel requirements was not with the main fighters and after refuelling, took of to the West, which would put him in the vicinity of the Southern (Brux) bombers
He was credited with three Lancaster “hits’ for that night.

At 22.30 he was credited with two Lancasters (Zeitz group returning home) near (Sangerhausen/Nordhausen) in rapid succession

The third Lancaster (and first) is thought to be LM 472 (hit at 22.04)

Reports state that he had not made contact with the bombers prior to 22.00 hours.

It was also reported that a night fighter- Tame Boar Zahme Sau- flew with the Brux stream for about 12 minutes before attacking LM 472, causing it to catch on fire.

A polish worker, K. Borowski, observed combat in the air from Schwand, saw the plane on fire, flying very low over Schwand, then change direction to the south east in the direction of Hahnenpohl.

22.04
A Lancaster Bomber (LM 472) flew low over the village of Geilsdorf (on fire) and the pilot’s intention seemed to be to land in a snow covered field. However, the plane hit some High Tension wires, crashed 30 meters from the road between Ruderitz and Geilsdorf and exploded

22.09
There was a large whitish explosion (seen by crew of another aircraft- 5026N, 1200E and ground eye-witnesses)
Another plane from 619 Squadron also reported an explosion between Hof & Plauen

The survivor of the crash (Jack Knight) said that the plane was hit by gunfire from below and fire spread over one wing setting the fuel tanks on fire. This should have given the crew only approx 3 minutes before the plane would explode. The plane flew for at least 5 minuets after the first “hit” and subsequent fire.
Because of his statement (in his casualty report) that his plane was hit by another “aircraft”, some statements were made that LM 472 was hit by “friendly fire”. A ground witness (a Polish man, stated that he say “combat overhead”, would seem to put an end to the “friendly fire” theory.

The plane would have been hit at approx. 17,000 feet, and exploded at 10,000 feet –this possibly meant that the plane was hit first at the higher altitude; the pilot dived to try to evade the fighter, but was hit again at 10,000 feet and exploded.

The pilot, Des McGonigle gave the order to abandon the aircraft, but dived down, trying to evade the fighter, suffered the second attack, and kept loosing altitude because of the attack and the aircraft being on fire, until the plane was very low.

This would also explain why the crew did not bale out. On impact, burning parts were scattered around the field, but most of the bombs were still unexploded in the bomb-bay.

The first on the scene of the crash was K Borowski (The Pole) and he found the survivor Jack Knight warming his hands by the burning plane.



any thoughts guys?


Thor