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  #1  
Old 9th December 2011, 16:52
Oberst Oberst is offline
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Exclamation <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945

Hello,

Just a few questions about Operation ' Werwolf ' for some research I am doing.

- Did they only use only the stripped down Me 109K-4's?
- At which base(s) did the flights originate from?
- Are there any photo's of the a/c's that were involved?
- Was there actually 8, or 11 heavies brought down by ramming on 7.4.44 (the Palace of Dallas being the most famous)?
- What role did the Me 262 play? Did they fly Top cover or were they much lower trying to divert attention from the 109?

I'm sure I'll have some more questions later. Any information greatly appreciated, and as always, many thanks.

Last edited by Oberst; 10th December 2011 at 05:39. Reason: corrected date
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  #2  
Old 9th December 2011, 23:00
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1944

7-Apr-45 perhaps? Have you seen the book "The Last Flight of the Luftwaffe" by Adrian Weir?
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Old 10th December 2011, 05:37
Oberst Oberst is offline
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Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1944

Yes exactly. 7.4.1945, I fixed. sorry About that. I haven't seen the book, but I heard of it. Been trying to get it from the usual places but they all say 'out of stock'. Thats why I asked questions here.
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Old 10th December 2011, 11:15
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Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
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Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberst View Post
Yes exactly. 7.4.1945, I fixed. sorry About that. I haven't seen the book, but I heard of it. Been trying to get it from the usual places but they all say 'out of stock'. Thats why I asked questions here.
You can get it from Abebooks online.

I had it years ago but wasn't that impressed and it went to a charity shop. He started with one veteran's memories and had to bulk them out to fill a book. I remember it as getting very repetitive when he described each American Group coming under attack — how the German pilot would have seen the [insert Bomb Group tail symbol] filling his windscreen just before impact.
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Old 10th December 2011, 13:16
Alain57 Alain57 is offline
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Exclamation Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945

Hello ,

After been rammed over Krummel B24 s/n 43-39126 from the 467BG/ 789BS named “ Sacktime “ broke up in two when they were above A-92 airfield near St-Truiden in Belgium .The entire crew bailed out and were safe.

Regards

Alain57
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Old 10th December 2011, 13:47
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Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945

I should add that the Luftwaffe actually called the project »Schulungslehrgang Elbe«, i.e. "Training Course Elbe."
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Old 10th December 2011, 15:58
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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<<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945

Hello Oberst

No idea of the types used but I would believe that G-14 and G-10 fighters participated as well as K-4 fighters. According to Caldwell and Muller the plan called for the exclusive use of Bf 109 fighters with high-altitude engines and metal propellers. Most of these were lightened by the removal of the radio transmitters as well as all armament except one MG 131 with reduced ammunition. Most also had the Revi 16 gun sight removed to facilitate bailing out. According to figures compiled by Fritz Marktscheffel it appears that a total of 188 fighters were readied for the operation at the main base of Stendal as well as at Salzwedel, Gardelegen, Sachau and Magdeburg and one base outside Prague. Approximately 143 fighters actually took off, 21 returned early due to technical trouble, 15 from Stendal were never given a target and returned to base due to fuel shortage and the 60 fighters from Prague were recalled when the bombers turned north and thus out of range. About 90 fighters contacted the enemy and about 40 actually made ramming attacks. 18 B-17 four-engined bombers were attacked as were three B-24 four-engined bombers as well as three unspecified four-engined types by ramming and one B-17 bomber and one fighter were claimed by machine gun fire. Losses included 18 pilots killed, six missing and 14 wounded. 16 pilots bailed out successfully, two were killed when their parachutes failed to open and four were killed by the Americans while in their parachutes. Another was attacked but survived a hard landing after his parachute was shot up. Known Bf 109 fighter losses were 13 to escorting fighters, three to German Flak, 21 in ramming attacks and 14 in emergency landings after contacting the enemy. It appears that the participating pilots were told that jet fighters would provide top cover but that none of the jet pilots actually knew of this and on that day these engaged bombers as was normal. 59 Me 262 jet fighters from JG 7 and I./KG(J) 54 flew operationally that day and JG 7 claimed one F-4 (P-38) twin-engined reconnaissance aircraft, two P-51 fighters and one B-17 and one B-24 four-engined bombers for no losses while I./KG(J) 54 claimed four B-17 four-engined bombers and lost one fighter to B-17 bomber return fire. It appears that the Eighth Air Force lost a total of 17 bombers and 189 were damaged that day. I hope this helps and any comments or corrections will be appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo
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Old 10th December 2011, 16:20
ClinA-78 ClinA-78 is offline
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Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945

"Auf den Spuren des "Elbe-Kommandos- RAMMJÄGER" by Dietrich Alsdorf (Podzun-Pallas, ISBN 3-7909-0746-4) is also heartly valuable, albeit in German.
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Old 10th December 2011, 21:28
Oberst Oberst is offline
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Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
You can get it from Abebooks online.

I had it years ago but wasn't that impressed and it went to a charity shop. He started with one veteran's memories and had to bulk them out to fill a book. I remember it as getting very repetitive when he described each American Group coming under attack — how the German pilot would have seen the [insert Bomb Group tail symbol] filling his windscreen just before impact.
I see, so not to much technical aspect/photos, if any?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
I should add that the Luftwaffe actually called the project »Schulungslehrgang Elbe«, i.e. "Training Course Elbe."
So where did 'Operation Werwulf', 'Rammkammando Elbe', & 'Sonderkammando Elbe' come from? I know Elbe is a river in Germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Etgen View Post
Hello Oberst

No idea of the types used but I would believe that G-14 and G-10 fighters participated as well as K-4 fighters. According to Caldwell and Muller the plan called for the exclusive use of Bf 109 fighters with high-altitude engines and metal propellers. Most of these were lightened by the removal of the radio transmitters as well as all armament except one MG 131 with reduced ammunition. Most also had the Revi 16 gun sight removed to facilitate bailing out. According to figures compiled by Fritz Marktscheffel it appears that a total of 188 fighters were readied for the operation at the main base of Stendal as well as at Salzwedel, Gardelegen, Sachau and Magdeburg and one base outside Prague. Approximately 143 fighters actually took off, 21 returned early due to technical trouble, 15 from Stendal were never given a target and returned to base due to fuel shortage and the 60 fighters from Prague were recalled when the bombers turned north and thus out of range. About 90 fighters contacted the enemy and about 40 actually made ramming attacks. 18 B-17 four-engined bombers were attacked as were three B-24 four-engined bombers as well as three unspecified four-engined types by ramming and one B-17 bomber and one fighter were claimed by machine gun fire. Losses included 18 pilots killed, six missing and 14 wounded. 16 pilots bailed out successfully, two were killed when their parachutes failed to open and four were killed by the Americans while in their parachutes. Another was attacked but survived a hard landing after his parachute was shot up. Known Bf 109 fighter losses were 13 to escorting fighters, three to German Flak, 21 in ramming attacks and 14 in emergency landings after contacting the enemy. It appears that the participating pilots were told that jet fighters would provide top cover but that none of the jet pilots actually knew of this and on that day these engaged bombers as was normal. 59 Me 262 jet fighters from JG 7 and I./KG(J) 54 flew operationally that day and JG 7 claimed one F-4 (P-38) twin-engined reconnaissance aircraft, two P-51 fighters and one B-17 and one B-24 four-engined bombers for no losses while I./KG(J) 54 claimed four B-17 four-engined bombers and lost one fighter to B-17 bomber return fire. It appears that the Eighth Air Force lost a total of 17 bombers and 189 were damaged that day. I hope this helps and any comments or corrections will be appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo
Hello Leo!
As usual from you, this is a quality response! Thanks alot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClinA-78 View Post
"Auf den Spuren des "Elbe-Kommandos- RAMMJÄGER" by Dietrich Alsdorf (Podzun-Pallas, ISBN 3-7909-0746-4) is also heartly valuable, albeit in German.
Thanks, I'll look for it.
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  #10  
Old 11th December 2011, 21:42
VtwinVince VtwinVince is online now
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Re: <<Rammkommando Elbe>> 7.4.1945

I have some archival material relating to this action, courtesy of Werner Zell, with whom I was in contact many years ago. PM me if you would like details.
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