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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#11
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
I did that for some types (Ju 87, Ju 88, He 111) using Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen from Michael Holm's site. The final numbers are close enough.
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#12
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
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In point 2 you suggest a few reasons for why the Luftwaffe in particular may have been badly affected by non-combat losses. I think its possible, particularly in view of the many comments made by men at the time and later historians, that the Luftwaffe maintenance and repair organisation was particularly bad in comparison to the RAF, for example. That would potentially mean that during crisis periods, such as the withdrawals late 1942, the Luftwaffe would be largely incapacitated by its own technical problems, rather than Allied air supremacy. Do you get that sense from your study of the Mediterranean air war? I have the impression that in Tunisia especially, the Luftwaffe had significant technical means and the men to use them, but failed to achieve much because of awful maintenance problems. I understand that you haven't been collating total losses, but do Ted Hooton's figures seem qualitatively correct? By that I mean do the loss figures match the relative intensity of combat across the time periods in question? I was surprised that the beginning of 1944 was as quiet as the beginning of 1943, in spite of the air battles around Anzio. Do you think that the Germans had much harder a time getting badly damaged aircraft repaired than the RAF or USAAF? |
#13
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
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I am replying separately to you because I've got in a bit of a muddle when trying to merge my replies. Thank you for giving the fighter Gruppe figures for comparison. It does seem that the non-combat losses were high, but as you say, the winter of 42/43 in the Mediterranean is somewhat of an exception. I see the merit of your points 1 through 3, but is point 4 really a case of many aircraft being dumped in Tunisia? I wonder whether the Luftwaffe field maintenance organisation was completely unsuitable for field operations as a whole, so any campaign in the African desert or Russian steppe would lead to large-scale accidental loss. Did the Gruppen you mention lose significantly more aircraft in accidents in Africa and the southern steppe than in the other areas where they operated? I've found my note with the Eastern Front totals, reproduced below: Quarter Year EA Accident Ratio of EA to Accident Q4 1942 646 476 1.36 Q1 1943 740 491 1.51 Q2 1943 654 560 1.17 Q3 1943 1247 784 1.59 Q4 1943 560 433 1.29 Q1 1944 584 599 0.97 Q2 1944 798 739 1.08 Is the summary from 22 June 1941 to January 1945 a document, or your calculation? I am asking because I've never come across this before. Last edited by Paul Thompson; 10th May 2012 at 22:39. Reason: Added Mr. Hooton's loss totals for Eastern front |
#14
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
Well, this thread seems to have died somewhat! I am not resurrecting it out of vanity, but because I've found yet more information which has utterly confused me again. The Osprey book about the La-5/7 (see Amazon link at bottom) contains the following loss figures:
In July-August 1943 total Luftwaffe losses to all causes on the Eastern front are given as 2419, including 432 Fw 190s. This seems ridiculously inflated, but is another explanation possible? Could this be the total of all incidents of aircraft sustaining damage? For a different period, July-August 1944, Khazanov and Medved say that JG 54 lost 115 aircraft to all causes and the Schlacht Geschwader lost 498. These figures seem much closer to the truth, at least if they are meant to be total losses. Can any forum members who have studied this area say if these numbers feel right? http://www.amazon.com/La-5-Fw-190-Ea.../dp/1849084734 |
#15
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
July-Aug 1943 would have been during the Kursk battle...
Don |
#16
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
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Month Lost to E/A Lost without E/A Sent to industry Total Jul43 682 355 247 1284 Aug43 461 368 306 1135 Total: 1143 723 553 2419 |
#17
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
Using the same source as before (Luftwaffe losses summary), I found that in June-July 1944:
_ JG 54 on the whole lost a total of 207 aircraft, 123 being destroyed (damage > 60%) and 84 damaged. _ if we exclude III./JG 54 that was on the West front, the figure is 112 losses, 55 destroyed and 57 damaged For all SG units (almost all being on the Eastern front, except a short period on Western Front for III./SG 4), I have 503 losses, 309 destroyed and 194 damaged. So Khazanov and Medved are close to truth for East Front losses in this period, but their figures included damaged and destroyed aircraft. PS: by the way my source is the website of Andreas Brekken and co, where the data is available through a database: http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_summ_los...iew.asp?PAGE=1 |
#18
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
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To go off on a slight tangent, is that database complete for the JG units? I've had a look at the Eastern front ones in the late 44-45 period, and the losses seem very small, especially compared to the West. Is that a true reflection of the reality of the war at the time, or do the Eastern units have some information missing? |
#19
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
I should have thought when you're discussing a battle/campaign that losses might be the aggregate number of aircraft that the units engaged needed to replace during the period concerned — essentially anything that you can't patch up locally and return to action before the battle/campaign is over.
Last edited by Nick Beale; 12th May 2012 at 19:55. Reason: apostrophe |
#20
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Re: Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification
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