We need some help regarding KG 40 Bordeaux-Merignac

[edNorth]

I belive these early He 111 E/J´s likely be of Stab./KG 40 - that also had KGr 126 attached in latter part of 1940 (making up for shortages of Fw 200´s) - for Mining operations (not Torpedo Bombers). Torpedo Bomber operations were (in that period) were done by He 115´s of the Kústenfliegergruppe, later, mostly, by KG 26 (first in KG 28 if I recall correctly, coded 1T+xx). http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kgr126.htm

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by edNorth

Torpedo Bomber operations were (in that period) were done by He 115´s of the Kústenfliegergruppe, later, mostly, by KG 26 (first in KG 28 if I recall correctly, coded 1T+xx). http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kgr126.htm

And by KGr. 126 in August 1940: http://www.ghostbombers.com/1940/LT/torpedo1.html

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by hans_wittman

Hi Chris,
I took the information from this very credible source :
In late 43 began conversion to Me 410 destroyers. In 6.43 redesignated V./KG2
http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kg40.htm
For the 111 h i also found nothing regarding torpedoes operations so far
Regards Hans

Herr Wittman:

No Me 410 operations of any sort over or even near the Bay of Biscay. If you are still in doubt, I recommend you obtain the excellent KG 2 unit history:

Balke, Ulf. Der Luftkrieg in Europa: die operativen Einsätze des Kampfgeschwaders 2 im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Teile 1 u. 2. Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1989 and 1990.

L.

[edNorth]

Ok, there it was. Operational-trials. One aircraft confirmed (1T+BH, but exact He 111 version not stated) and total of six (600 kg) torpedoes expanded. No hits registered, so probably all were unsucessful. Other LT-Kette not confirmed. Note this was KGr 126 aircraft, not KG 40 per se. -Ed

[hans_wittman]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

Herr Wittman:

No Me 410 operations of any sort over or even near the Bay of Biscay. If you are still in doubt, I recommend you obtain the excellent KG 2 unit history:

Balke, Ulf. Der Luftkrieg in Europa: die operativen Einsätze des Kampfgeschwaders 2 im Zweiten Weltkrieg. Teile 1 u. 2. Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe Verlag, 1989 and 1990.

L.

Hi Larry,

Thank for contributing to the discussion but the more i read the more i found documents about Me 410 like this one here :

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...me=false&dov=1



Here an extract from it :

Other Bay of Biscay and Atlantic Ocean Luftwaffe units
While operating from Brest, 5./B.F.Gr. 196, 1./S.A.Gr. 128 and 10./Z.G. 1 worked alongside other German units under the Fliegerführer Atlantik. 8./J.G. 2 periodically flew against the Coastal Command anti-submarine aircraft, and in June 1943 the Staffel took on strength some long-range FW 190 A-5/U8s (some of these were kept until February 1944). The best known of the German units flying over the Bay of Biscay was V./K.G. 40 with its Ju 88s (it became I./Z.G. 1 in October 1943). Other units were more enigmatic, like the Me 410-equipped 7./Z.G. 1, which flew a single six-aircraft mission on 28 July 1943, before leaving the next day. Other elements of Z.G. 1 and Z.G. 26 also made appearances over the Bay in 1943 and 1944 with Ju 88s and Bf 110s. 1./S.A.Gr. 129 operated the BV 138 and BV 222, while 2./S.A.Gr. 128 flew the Ar 196 A-3.

Regards Hans

[hans_wittman]

Originally Posted by edNorth

Ok, there it was. Operational-trials. One aircraft confirmed (1T+BH, but exact He 111 version not stated) and total of six (600 kg) torpedoes expanded. No hits registered, so probably all were unsucessful. Other LT-Kette not confirmed. Note this was KGr 126 aircraft, not KG 40 per se. -Ed

Hi Ed,

Thank that a nice found and i suspect there is more to be found about this.

Regards Hans

[edNorth]

Hans, you can not be serious? This was not KG 40 aircraft.
I help no more. Period. -Ed

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by hans_wittman

Hi Ed,

Thank that a nice found and i suspect there is more to be found about this.

Regards Hans

Really? Where do you hope to find it? So far as I am aware, before I researched and wrote that piece on KGr. 126, no one had realised that He 111 torpedo operations were taking place that early. At least three other people had written about Lorenz's operations, from sources indicating that these flights had begun in November 1940.

If you still doubt what people who have done serious work on this topic are telling you, then you will get little further on the internet. Apart from the books already recommended, you could make a start by buying Chris Goss's "Bloody Biscay" and the two volumes of his "Sea Eagles: Luftwaffe Anti-Shipping Units 1939–45" series; Harold Thiele's "Luftwaffe Aerial Torpedo Aircraft and Operations in World War II", Werner Stocker and Peter Petrick's "Me 210/Me 410 Hornisse Hornet" and Adam Thompson's "Küstenflieger: The Operational History of the German Naval Air Service 1935-1944."

Then, if you are not able to spend time at the UK National Archives, buy a subscription to the American archives website Fold3.com where you will find the daily war diaries of the British Admiralty for the entire war. By studying these for the period September 1939–August 1944 you will be able to assess every known report of aircraft attacks on shipping in the Biscay and Atlantic areas and come to your own conclusions.

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by hans_wittman

Hi Larry,

Thank for contributing to the discussion but the more i read the more i found documents about Me 410 like this one here :

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...me=false&dov=1



Here an extract from it :

Other Bay of Biscay and Atlantic Ocean Luftwaffe units
While operating from Brest, 5./B.F.Gr. 196, 1./S.A.Gr. 128 and 10./Z.G. 1 worked alongside other German units under the Fliegerführer Atlantik. 8./J.G. 2 periodically flew against the Coastal Command anti-submarine aircraft, and in June 1943 the Staffel took on strength some long-range FW 190 A-5/U8s (some of these were kept until February 1944). The best known of the German units flying over the Bay of Biscay was V./K.G. 40 with its Ju 88s (it became I./Z.G. 1 in October 1943). Other units were more enigmatic, like the Me 410-equipped 7./Z.G. 1, which flew a single six-aircraft mission on 28 July 1943, before leaving the next day. Other elements of Z.G. 1 and Z.G. 26 also made appearances over the Bay in 1943 and 1944 with Ju 88s and Bf 110s. 1./S.A.Gr. 129 operated the BV 138 and BV 222, while 2./S.A.Gr. 128 flew the Ar 196 A-3.

Regards Hans

Hans -

Up to now, I thought this discussion was about KG 40 and the Me 410-equipped V./KG 2. Now it seems to have morphed into a discussion of any and all Me 410-equipped units in the West.

I have no dispute with the Andrew Arthy article. In the second half of July 1943, 7./ZG 1 was ordered to Brest/Süd to fly fighter patrols over the Bay of Biscay after re-equipping with Me 410's in Germany (probably at Wittmundhafen or Hildesheim), but it was recalled back to the Reich after less than a month in France to rejoin the rest of III./ZG 1 which was arriving from Sicily and Italy at that time. It reported no combat losses while at Brest/Süd but one Me 410 A-1 was damaged in a taxying mishap there on 26 July.

L.

[hans_wittman]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Really? Where do you hope to find it? So far as I am aware, before I researched and wrote that piece on KGr. 126, no one had realised that He 111 torpedo operations were taking place that early. At least three other people had written about Lorenz's operations, from sources indicating that these flights had begun in November 1940.

If you still doubt what people who have done serious work on this topic are telling you, then you will get little further on the internet. Apart from the books already recommended, you could make a start by buying Chris Goss's "Bloody Biscay" and the two volumes of his "Sea Eagles: Luftwaffe Anti-Shipping Units 1939–45" series; Harold Thiele's "Luftwaffe Aerial Torpedo Aircraft and Operations in World War II", Werner Stocker and Peter Petrick's "Me 210/Me 410 Hornisse Hornet" and Adam Thompson's "Küstenflieger: The Operational History of the German Naval Air Service 1935-1944."

Then, if you are not able to spend time at the UK National Archives, buy a subscription to the American archives website Fold3.com where you will find the daily war diaries of the British Admiralty for the entire war. By studying these for the period September 1939–August 1944 you will be able to assess every known report of aircraft attacks on shipping in the Biscay and Atlantic areas and come to your own conclusions.

Hi Nick,

Sorry my intention was not to argue about what research people have done and i am not here to create a controversy on the subject but sometime even the best researchers forgot a few thing here and there and i didn't know we cannot talk about it without people becoming mad.

I was polite and simply asking about it and even if you tell me that this poster or this poster is the ultimate authority over the subject then all i can reply is that i don't know anybody here, so it a matter of trust that about it.

I see no reason for people getting rude over this.

Regards Hans