He219 loss 19 April 1944?

[keith A]

Returning to this subject. The Ju188E-1 is a nice fit for a Do217M but revisiting this there are problems (apart from the absence of a time). The Ju88E-1 had a distinctive tail, familiar to McLeod when he attacked Ju88s in Malta, and Johnson's first aerial victory was against a Do17 in 1941. A mistake by these two seems unlikely. The evidence. The Do217 is more likely (a type that Johnson - whose eyesight is remarked by other pilots- may have encountered over Dieppe in 1942). Neither Johnson (or probably all of his pilots) had encountered the Bf110 in combat and so there's an argument there but it is much smaller than the Do217. McLeod broke off his attack at (he states) 100 yards when he must have been able to identify his opponent. A quality he showed in Malta. I still believe it was a Do217 (a type he identified correctly a few weeks later). But the Ju188E is a strong contender....despite the tail, and VERY pointed wings of the Ju188E-1. However several staffels of KG-2 was still flying the Do217M-1 as late as September 1944, therefore...

K

[Tempest]

Hi Keith

I hope this link works, copy and paste this :-
© IWM CGA 485~563
It should take you to the the 2nd TAF Gun Camera film at the IWM, Scroll through to the 19th and you will see the film which clearly shows an ME 110 G night fighter.

Regards Tempest

[MW Giles]

Definitely an Me110

Martin

[keith A]

Spot on Tempest . It is definitely a Me110G! How McLeod and others failed to see that is weird. Johnson had encountered the Bf110 in 1943. It's so close that it could not be anything else.

Many thanks to you and the others who chipped in with suggestions.

Best regards

Keith

[Nick Beale]

It does make you wonder what Peter Jackson's restoration technology could do with those films.

[Tempest]

I would say the Bf110 G-4 Wn 740148 of IV/NJG1 shot down on a transfer flight near Tirlemont is the aircraft in the film. As regards the miss identification, we don’t know if any of the pilots were suffering suffering from fatigue or if the combat was very quick as I can imagine they didn’t want to hang around. Can’t imagine what the visibility was like from the cockpit of a Spitfire over enemy territory must’ve been quite stressful on occasions to put it mildly.
IWM RAF Camera gun film available on line is very interesting and brings home the reality of air combat and ground attack.

Regards Tempest.

[keith A]

A fair point but McLeod was on the tail of this Me110 for several seconds as he pressed his gun button and watched it fall to the ground for several further seconds.

Like the rest of the pilots had only just returned to action after more than a year of instructing (most of the squadron had never been in action). I'm not sure that stress would be an issue especially given the time McLeod had to attack the Me110 (apparently without facing return fire). They hung around to watch it crash. Was the pilot alone? I can't remember if parachutes were seen.

I assume the camera gun film was shown to the pilots (they were flying from an airfield in the UK) after it was developed. So it's just poor aircraft recognition by pilots and I/O.

best regards

Keith

[Tempest]

Hi Keith

Yes agreed.

[edwest2]

Recognizing other aircraft was a big problem, along with what is erroneously called "friendly fire." There's nothing friendly about having your own people shooting at you. I recall a Luftwaffe pilot saying, "Our own flak shot at us all the time."

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16543238574...Bk9SR46M_5fcYg

Those who have never been in combat cannot know all the particulars.

[keith A]

Well as we know a German said to his British captors " When the RAF fly over, we duck. When the Luftwaffe fly over, you duck. When the Americans fly over EVERYBODY ducks"

I recall a Luftwaffe pilot saying, "Our own flak shot at us all the time."

I am sure if he could, George Preddy would echo your observation. "Butch" O'Hare too....

The pilots of 74 Squadron RAF had at least two incidents where they attacked RAF aircraft. Douglas Bader was probably shot down by a fellow allied pilot.

However in this case it's surprising that the Bf110 is not recognised.

K