A question on Hans-Joachim Marseille's Battle of Britain period claims

[Juha]

Already at the turn of the millennium I saw the following table:
MARSEILLE - Battle of Britain
# Date Time Claim Local Obs
1. 20.08.40 or 24.08.40-- Spitfire (I have seen both dates as the Marseille's first claim, 24.8.40 seems to be more common.)
2. 02.09.40 -- Spitfire
3. 11.09.40 17:05 Spitfire
4. 15.09.40 -- Hurricane I
5. 18.09.40 [10:40] Spitfire (The time is sometimes given sometimes not.)
6. 27.09.40 -- Hurricane I
7. 28.09.40 -- Spitfire

What sources is this based on? The most surprising thing is that at Tony Wood's LW claims list and in Prien et al. Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 Teil 4/II the only claim by Marseille with known date is on 08.09.40 Fhr. Hans-Joachim Marseille: - 1.(J)/LG 2 Spitfire �� - 09.40 plus info that I Gruppe (Jagd)/LG 2: period 26.06.40-31.10.40. Dates for various claims are not clearly submitted during this period in time. Obfhr. Marseille claimed 6, Ofw. Helmut Goedert claimed 4, Ofw. Hermann Guhl claimed 1 or 2 or Between 26/06/40 and 31/10/40, six or seven "abschuss" were claimed,the precise dates of which are not known,to which must be added five whoses dates are known but not the claimants.
On these 11 or 12 "abschuss":
6 by Marseille
4 by Helmut Geodert
1 or 2 by Hermann Guhl

I can easily understand that new information is found but why is the only former "for certain" known claim discarded?

TIA
Juha

[Juha]

I looked into the matter a little more closely and it seems that the earlier claim date of 8 September 1940 is incorrect and the correct date for it is 18 September 1940.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Juha

I have found Johannes M very reliable in the past and he has probably done more claims research than
most.

He lists eight claims made by Marseille in the BoB period, seven which he states were unconfirmed

His dates are
24.8.1940 uncfd
2.9.1940 uncfd
11.9.1940 uncfd
14.9.1940 cfd as claim no 1
14.9.1940 uncfd
18.9.1940 uncfd
27.9.1940 uncfd
28.9.1940 uncfd

His exact sources in Marseille's case are unknown to me.
However if you excuse me for pointing out the obvious, you don't list your exact sources either......

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi

By memory the mikrofilm regarding Marseille's staffel are complete, and only one found. I had read somewhere that his claims were often unwitnessed, therefor would most likely be unconfirmed, which is very likely to be the case here. Indeed his earlier unit was LG 2.

It would appear that JG 27 themselves counted pilots unconfirmed claims. With Werner Schroer claims omitted from the mikrofilms are marked as unconfirmed on his staffel abschüßtafel, yet official document include them in his total.

I felt Marseille had only one confirmed claim before Afrika, plus 151 confirmed in Afrika. Yet his rudder includes the six unconfirmed..........but this was often the case. A good example his Herbert Rollwage's rudder, which clearly has his unconfirmed marked as such, and his was an elaborate/informative marking system, whereas Marseille's was plain bars.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Adriano Baumgartner]

I guess that if I were a pilot I would do the same:
Add the unconfirmed victory onto my rudder bar waiting until the "Paperwork men" back at the desks and at the RLM, those who were not fighting the war, would process the stuff...

You must remember some things about those airmen (both sides):
a) They were young;
b) THEY were fighting the war, several sorties per day risking their necks,
c) They were Fighter Pilots (they generally are bolder and quicker in actions than the other majority)

I was just reading a similar case about Captain Godfrey (4th FG) who insisted that he had some 36 "official" claims, instead of the combined (air + ground) 29 that the US Army Air Corps credited him.....so you see that some unconfirmed claims were disputed by pilots in every Air Force around the Globe, in WW2....it was not a particular case of Marseille or the LW.

A.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Johannes
Cheers
Stig

[Juha]

Thank you very much Stig and Johannes!
So the list is more or less correct, but on September 15, no claims, but on September 14, two, one of which is the only confirmed aerial victory during the BoB. I had bought a copy of Parry's Battle of Britain Combat Archieve 13 a couple of days ago and had noticed that it doesn't have a Marseille's claim on September 15th but now I noticed that there is one Marseille's claim on September 14th.

Ps. for Stig The sources of my original list were a couple of online discussions on a couple of sites that have already disappeared into bitspace.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Another strange thing about Marseille, he was egocentric rather like Josef Wurmheller, only difference is that Marseille was also honest, also a maverick, some people just didn't like him. I can imagine he was not pleased when a claim was not confirmed.

I am under the impression that Wurmheller's C.O Egon Mayer didn't like him, and that Wurmheller would continuously try to show-off before him. I'm wondering if Mayer suspected Wurmheller of "over-claiming".. I must admit if I was Marseille's C.O I'd suspect the same.........unless I'd actually seen him in combat, his record is almost unbelievable

Keep Well

Johannes

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Juha

Ps. for Stig The sources of my original list were a couple of online discussions on a couple of sites that have already disappeared into bitspace.

Thanks Juha
One of the dangers with Internet and why I always prefer the "good book"!!

Cheers
Stig