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  #1  
Old 22nd November 2020, 12:57
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Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

Hi all, I would like to ask for help in following matter:

On 13. 12 1943 at 07.02 RAF Liberator reported an unknown enemy aircraft approx. 50 nautical miles west of Isles of Scilly. Crew has spotted the enemy at the distance of 500 yards before it turned into clouds and disappeared. They reported it may be a Fw 190 but as it was far enough, the identification may be incorrect.

A lonely Fw 190 seems quite unlikely to me, I would expect rather some twin-engine long range reconnaissance or weather-reconnaissance aircraft?

So I would like to ask if anybody has available any information about a Luftwaffe aircraft operating in this area on this day around this time? The RAF used BST at the time, i.e. GMT+1, Luftwaffe had CET, i.e. GMT+1 so the German time should be the same - 07.02.

Any help will be much appreciated.

Pavel
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Old 22nd November 2020, 13:15
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

I have this from the Air Operations Watch report for the day (ZIP/No. 1020):
Reconnaissance in western end of Channel by NAG 13 from Morlaix. Intention: 2 Fw 190 up 1145 [British Summer Time] in 14 West 4935 for recce of 15 West 51 and 61. No sighting reports were made.
The major report effort that day was by Fw 200s and Ju 290s looking for a convoy out in the Atlantic. During the afternoon a Ju 88 was due up on security reconnaissance as well.
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Old 22nd November 2020, 13:34
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

A few German aircraft around AM 13 Dec 43 namely 2 Ju 290s of FAG 5 and a Fw 200 of III./KG 40 (which landed in Ireland). No mention of a Liberator and the crew appears not to have reported this to Coastal Command
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Old 23rd November 2020, 22:51
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

Nick and Chris, thank you both!
The crew of 311 Sq was led by the Squdron CO W/C Nedved MBE DFC so the sighting of an nemy was reported for sure. The strange moment is that it is not stated in the squadron ORB which is quite vague, but it is mentioned in the group ORB.

While reading your replies I am thinking of posssibility there was just a confusion Ju 290 x Fw 190?

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Old 24th November 2020, 12:11
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

Pavel: The Germans recorded nothing and the 311 Sqn crew were vague and never reported it to Coastal Command (in any case spotting an aircraft is different to combat with an aircraft). Confusing a Ju 290 and a Fw 190 is hard to do and in any case, there would have been one Ju 290 and two Fw 190s. Also, the Fw 190s did not take off until 1145 hrs, well after the 311 Sqn crew spotted an aircraft.
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Old 24th November 2020, 21:43
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

Chris, thank you for your further reply. My sincere apology - my previous post about the confusion was improper.

I would like to ask if it sounds possible that the person who was typing the No. 19 Group ORB Appendicies has typed Fw 190 instead Ju 290 or Fw 200?

May I ask you also what you mean by "never reported it to Coastal Command"? You mean that the WOp aboard the Liberator does not reported the sighting at the time as nothing has happened and the crew reported the sighting only to the Intelligence Officer after landing?

Thank you

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Old 25th November 2020, 00:33
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

Pavel-it was not reported in the Coastal Command Intelligence Summary
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Old 25th November 2020, 20:35
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

Thank you for your reply Chris, I got it.

Pavel
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Old 6th January 2021, 19:14
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

Nick and Chris, I am very sorry, but may I ask if you would be so kind to check your records once more please?

311 Sq Liberator in question took-off for patrol at 19:40 BST on 13.12.43 and landed at 08:24 BST on 14.12.43 so the sighting has been at 07.02 BST on 14.12.43! What a stupid mistake:-(

Thank you

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Old 6th January 2021, 19:43
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Re: Luftwaffe operations over the Celtic Sea on 13.12.1943?

Nothing from what I can see apart from maybe a recce Ju 88 of (F)/123 but no mention of anything
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