Stukas at El Guettar April 3, 1943

[marcpoole]

Hi all,

First post in over a decade...please go easy on me! I am searching for any information regarding Stuka losses on April 3, 1943 at El Guettar, Tunisia. I am researching 52nd FG pilot Arnold Vinson, who downed one of the 12 Stukas claimed that day, right before he was shot down by escorting 109's. Vinson was flying a Spitfire Mk. Vc, JK171 code QP*T. I am guessing the Stukas were from StG 3, but this is completely outside my wheelhouse. Can anyone point me in the right direction to learn more about the German units involved or possible accounts of the engagements that day? Any help is greatly appreciated! Best regards- Marc

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Marc,

Some of the researchers here do have the LW Loss List from the Bundesarchiv. I am not sure if those 12 x Ju 87 B/D losses are recorded there, though.

Have you managed to cross-check WHO claimed Arnold Vinson? There were only a small number of claims that day, mostly by JG 53 and JG 77. I thought my relative (Obfw. Wilhelm Baumgartner, from Swiss) may have flown that day, but he not claimed...his last victory was on the 06th April (he died on the 11th).

The other possibility is to track down the German Cemitery in Afrika and cross-check the losses for that date...at least you will have the names of those killed in action....

Most sincerely yours...
Adriano

OBS: Be sure that people here do try their best to help one another...It may take some time, but you will probably have your answer.

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Marc,

There was a combined evening ground-attack operation by III./St.G. 3 (Ju 87s) and III./S.K.G. 10 (FW 190s), escorted by Bf 109s of J.G. 77, against American forces near Gafsa. III./St.G. 3 took off from El Djem at 17:45, and returned to base at 19:40. Six FW 190s of III./S.K.G. 10 took off from La Fauconnerie at 18:15, and landed at 19:05.

Twelve Spitfires of the 2nd FS/52nd FG were on a fighter sweep and reconnaissance mission. The Stuka pilots reported the presence of 40-50 Spitfires, but the FW 190 pilots noted the presence of only sixteen fighters. III./S.K.G. 10 and J.G. 77 reported no losses, but St.G. 3 was not so fortunate. Its lost and damaged aircraft were as follows (the Americans were a little optimistic):

- Ju 87 D-3 WNr. 2985, III./St.G. 3, pilot Oblt. Heinrich Banke wounded, gunner Fw. Hans Ottilinger killed, force-landing, destroyed by own troops, 100% loss
- Ju 87 D-3 WNr. 2996 'S7 + BS', 7./St.G. 3, pilot unhurt, gunner Uffz. Herbert Reisenbauer wounded, 10% damage
- Ju 87 D-3 WNr. 1000, 7./St.G. 3, no personnel wounded, 35% damage
- Ju 87 D-3 WNr. 2048, 7./St.G. 3, pilot Uffz. Paul Bärwald killed, gunner Fw. Martin Falk killed, 100% loss
- Ju 87 D-3 WNr. 1001, 7./St.G. 3, no personnel wounded, 30% damage
- Ju 87 D-3 WNr. 2999, 9./St.G. 3, pilot Lt. Hubert Pölz wounded, gunner Uffz. Sepp Jourez killed, 100% loss
- Ju 87 D-3 WNr. 2949, 9./St.G. 3, pilot Uffz. Helmut Benedix wounded, gunner Uffz. Josef Seidel killed, 100% loss

Erhard Jähnert was one of the 9./St.G. 3 pilots involved in this mission, but surprisingly did not mention it in his memoirs. Pölz, Jähnert and Benedix were still flying with the unit in 1944/1945.

Jagdgeschwader 77 reported two Spitfires shot down, one claimed by Lt. Armin Köhler at 18:51, and the other by Ofw. Heinz Meschke at 18:52. Köhler wrote in his diary:

"About 18:00 a further Stuka attack is carried out on the positions between El Guettar and Gafsa. It was foolish, flying into the sun, where the Americans had no difficulty in getting the better of us. We lost six Stukas, while Oberleutnant Goedert and Feldwebel Meschke each claimed a Spitfire. I had taken off with Küdorf, Meschke and Leutnant Hemmersdorf. During the take-off Hemmersdorf’s undercarriage struck a barrel and he collided with a Bf 109 of 3. Staffel. Both aircraft burst into flames. Hemmersdorf was killed but Stahl got out alive."


Sources
KTB SKL
NA HW 5
NA HW 13
BA-MA RL 10/361
NARA RG 18 Box 2281
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss list
Luftwaffe victory claims material
Prien, Jagdgeschwader 77
Shores, Ring & Hess, Fighters Over Tunisia
Jähnert, Flugbuch
Olynyk, MTO


Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

[Adriano Baumgartner]

ANDY,

I am speechless. Thank you for sharing all that data with us...most amazing and detaile information. CONGRATULATIONS! I assume that this is part of your book about the Fw 190 in action over North Afrika....which must be a "beauty" to read.

A most grateful member (who learned a bit more...),
Adriano

[marcpoole]

You gentlemen are SIMPLY AMAZING...Thank you SO MUCH. I can only glance at the response this morning, but will digest it later today and will reply again. This is EXACTLY what I was hoping to find...I will elaborate more later on what I am attempting to do.

Again, my SINCEREST THANK YOU to Andrew and Adriano!

Best Regards, Marc Poole

[marcpoole]

Andrew Arthy, I greatly appreciate the time and effort in your speedy reply. It is exactly what I was hoping to discover. I am an Artist Member in the American Society of Aviation Artists, and have a commission to depict Arnold Vinson's final victory for a museum here in Mississippi (Vinson was from Mississippi).

For what it's worth, I frequented the 12 O'Clock High! forum quite often back in 1999-2002 or so while I was in graduate school. I constructed the website for the 384th Bomb Group (www.384thbombgroup.com , 8th AF B-17's, Grafton-Underwood, England) and maintained the site until I got married and family life got in the way. It's since been managed by a great team of researchers. This particular topic is new territory for me, so I appreciate your generosity in sharing information. I want to nail down as many of the facts as I can assemble before beginning, and would like to share my progress if interested.

The book "Spitfires and Yellow Tail Mustangs" by Tom Ivie and Paul Ludwig offers some accounts of the April 3 mission from 52nd FG, 2nd FS pilots...Norm McDonald's account:

"15-20 Stukas were sighted just as they were dive bombing American concentrations. As my flight was nearest the Stukas, we went after the farthest formation. They were very slow, and we caught them easily. I closed to within 25-30 yards of the trailing Ju 87, opened up with both cannon and machine guns, using about 5 degrees of deflection. A 2-3 second burst was sufficient. The motor belched black smoke and slight flame. The aircraft dove down and left into the ground from about 1000 feet. I closed on the next Stuka same distance and deflection, opened up with both cannon and machine guns, 2 or 3 second burst. The aircraft burst into flames, broke into pieces in the air. This combat took place at about 1000 feet.

"The third victim was about 500 yards ahead. I closed on him easily. He was in a slight climb. Again my range was no more than 35 yards, very slight right deflection from slightly below. The rear gunner was firing intensely at me. I opened up with cannon and machine guns, about a 3 second burst. Just as we entered a cloud great chunks of his propeller and parts of the plane flew back, just missing me. When I came out of the cloud the Stuka was spinning into the ground, and emitting much smoke and pieces still flying off. This combat took place at about 1500 feet, cloud base. Of the 3 e/a, only the latter seemed to take any evasive action, and he just tried to beat me to cloud cover. I was only conscious of return fire from the third aircraft."

Those 3 would appear to be 3 of the 100% losses you have provided. McDonald joined in on another attack on 3 more Ju87's and claimed a probable, but then evaded after coming under attack from the escorting 109's.

Lt. Miles Lynn was Vinson's wingman, and gives this account:

"I was with Vinson when we were jumped by 109's. He had already shot down one Stuka; I called a break but he was hit as we turned. We all felt bad about Vinson, especially me, since I was his wingman. But I felt I did my part."


The time of the Stuka attack in Köhler's account is "about 18:00." McDonald acknowledges sighting them "just as they were dive-bombing." I am inferring that the Stukas would be coming out of their dives and re-assembling on their exit when McDonald attacks the element farthest away, at an altitude of 1000 feet. Vinson and his wingman Lynn, behind Vinson, I assume attacked one of the trailing elements during the time Vinson was in combat with his 3 Stukas. As this is going on, the 109's of J.G. 77 dive to attack Vinson as he begins an attack on another flight of Stukas. The book states "Witness said that Capt. Vinson was pursuing the Me 109's on Capt. McDonald's tail when he was shot down." The group diarist recorded that "Vinson was coming to the aid of Capt. McDonald who had been jumped by three enemy aircraft. When McDonald called back to say everything was OK again, he received no reply from Capt. Vinson, nor was the latter ever seen again."

My next questions would be how the aircraft involved looked...Vinson's Spitfire had only been assigned to the 2nd FS for less than a week, so was a fairly fresh plane with little wear. I feel I have his plane fairly well nailed down. Can you point me in the direction for any good references for III./St.G. 3 Ju 87 D-3's for March/April 1943, as well as JG 77's 109's? I'll gladly buy any necessary books to add to my library!

Another question...the times given for the JG 77 claims... "Lt. Armin Köhler at 18:51, and the other by Ofw. Heinz Meschke at 18:52." Yet the Köhler diary claim around 18:00 for the Stuka attack. I would think that the combats would follow immediately after...thats a pretty wide gap. Köhler's quote also lists "Oberleutnant Goedert and Feldwebel Meschke each claimed a Spitfire." Did Köhler have a victory, or Goedert?

Again, many thanks for your assistance. If you happen to be on facebook, you can see examples of my artwork on my studio page at:

https://www.facebook.com/marcpoolestudios/?ref=tn_tnmn

I hope to start scribbling some compositional sketches in the next few weeks.

Cheers,
Marc