Areal photo of crashed B-17 in Germany

[Alex Smart]

Hello Again
So, are we still saying that the four P-38's strafed a downed B17 on the 4th April 1945 or the 14th April 1945 ?
Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Sorry to see that my earlier post (11) has not been replied too.
However I persevere.
It is accepted that witnesses have in many cases only vague memories of dates, even years.
So how about this B17?
I could find no mention of it in AAIR list for April 1945 or in MACR lists.
However the Joe Baugher lists does have it.

As does "The Heavy Bombers of the Mighty Eighth" page 20.

" 338306. 91 - 322 - LG -B - The Biggest Bird.
21/07/44 Added to AAF inventory; 10/08/44 Assigned overseas; 18/08/44 Gained;
05/12/44 AF Horham; 07/12/44 2SAD (UK); Salvaged Regained 20/01/45;
04/04/45 2SAD Regained 25/04/45;
25/04/45 FTRLOC( Failed to return,landed on Continent behind friendly lines); Air Force Service Command ; BO 178 1351.
See: AFMA 29; BOWO 29; CAMB 82; VALA 59".

Alex

[Rolfeb]

Hi ALex,

thanks a lot for your replies.
Good to know that the Serial number starts with 43.

I still beleive that the B-17 was strafed by 4 P-38. One of the eye witnesses passed away already but he was writing a diary and he wrote down so many Details about the planes also from other missions and crashes that I beleive it.
Of course difficult to understand.

Rolf

[Hans Nauta]

Hi Rolf,

A similar incident happened here in The Netherlands:

On 22 february 1945 B-24 42-95241 of 392nd Bomb Group made a belly landing near Zoetermeer. It was strafed 4 days later by Spitfires of 453 Squadron. IIRC the wreck of the B-24 was also visible on aerial photographs by coincidence prior to the strafing.

However, the decision to shoot up the B-24 was not made by the PRU or interpretation units. The wreck was spotted earlier that day by 453 Squadron and apperantly the decision was made at Squadron, or perhaps at Group level.

In fact the situation Chris Going already pointed out. Nevertheless there might be a chance that the wreck of the concerned B-17 may have been photographed too purely by coincidence...

Regards,
Hans

[RSwank]

Rolf, You don't seem to say where these eyewitnesses saw this event occur. I looked back through MACR 13868 for 43-38664 on fold3.com. While the plane was "last seen" at 48 22N, 12 22E, the pilot Shirk's statement in the MACR (page 43) says that he crash landed the plane in the outskirts of "Hochstadt".

While there are a few possibilities for which "Hochstadt" he is talking about, some of the men who parachuted were captured near Wertingen (page 44) so I think Shirk means Hochstadt an der Donau.

Is this where your eyewitnesses saw the P-38s shoot up the downed B-17?

As to what P-38s may have been involved, the only 9th AF group still flying P-38s was the 474th. No 8th AF fighter groups still flew them. However, when you read the Air Force Chronology for 14 April, 1945, there is this statement for April 14th 1945 by the 15th AF.

"STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 318 B-17s and B-24s hit
ammunition factories at Avigliana, Spilimbergo, Malcontenta, and Palmanova,
and a motor transport depot at Osoppo, Italy and the Klagenfurt, Austria
marshalling yard as a target of opportunity; 158 fighters provide escort; 29
P-38s bomb and strafe railroad targets in the Munich and Regensburg, Germany-
Linz, Austria areas; 54 P-51s fly escort for MATAF B-25s bombing targets in N
Italy."


The 82nd FG lost a P-38 in the area on the 14 April, not sure if the 14th FG was operating in that area. The 1st FG seems to have been flying missions in Italy on that day. Those are the 3 fighter groups operating P-38s in the 15th AF.

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

No MACR @ AAIR?

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/s...3868&Submit=Go

Col

[Alex Smart]

Hello Col,

Not for either 43-38664 or 43-38306
Alex

[Kutscha]

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/12669

[Chris Going]

Hi Hans

Interesting business the your 22 February 1945 incident. Am I right in thinking that the reconnaissance aircraft photographed B24 42-95241 in the act of crash landing?
Incidentally, daily ‘flash’ and first phase interpreters reports from this period do survive and they go down to pretty high levels of detail (eg tank tracks at such and such a Grid ref; small column of people on road at Grid ref), so someone can have fun tracking down whether or not some claimed late war events actually occurred. They can than have even more fun trying to track down the imagery to prove it. I once had quite a lot to do with it, so I can say with some confidence that there are about some 20-25 shelf kilometres of recon prints and films still surviving from WW2. I am also confident that Rolf’s B24 crash site was photographed, not necessarily at the time, but within a few months and that if he could only be sure of the location, a search of the relevant Casey Jones material might show up something.

Best


Chris

[Rolfeb]

Originally Posted by RSwank

Rolf, You don't seem to say where these eyewitnesses saw this event occur. I looked back through MACR 13868 for 43-38664 on fold3.com. While the plane was "last seen" at 48 22N, 12 22E, the pilot Shirk's statement in the MACR (page 43) says that he crash landed the plane in the outskirts of "Hochstadt".

While there are a few possibilities for which "Hochstadt" he is talking about, some of the men who parachuted were captured near Wertingen (page 44) so I think Shirk means Hochstadt an der Donau.

Is this where your eyewitnesses saw the P-38s shoot up the downed B-17?

As to what P-38s may have been involved, the only 9th AF group still flying P-38s was the 474th. No 8th AF fighter groups still flew them. However, when you read the Air Force Chronology for 14 April, 1945, there is this statement for April 14th 1945 by the 15th AF.

"STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 318 B-17s and B-24s hit
ammunition factories at Avigliana, Spilimbergo, Malcontenta, and Palmanova,
and a motor transport depot at Osoppo, Italy and the Klagenfurt, Austria
marshalling yard as a target of opportunity; 158 fighters provide escort; 29
P-38s bomb and strafe railroad targets in the Munich and Regensburg, Germany-
Linz, Austria areas; 54 P-51s fly escort for MATAF B-25s bombing targets in N
Italy.

The 82nd FG lost a P-38 in the area on the 14 April, not sure if the 14th FG was operating in that area. The 1st FG seems to have been flying missions in Italy on that day. Those are the 3 fighter groups operating P-38s in the 15th AF.

Sorry, plane made a belly landing outside a small village with about 300 residents that time and is called Finningeb. That's about 10 miles west of Wertingen and Höchstädt where some of the flyers came down.
Regards
Rolf