German Navy Fokker D.VII

[Petrusja]

The Dutch city of Vlissingen (Flushing) has some interesting pictures of aircraft which ended up in the area during WWI.

The 2nd, 4th, 10th, 40th and 45th pic in this selection all show a Fokker D.VII numbered '115'. According to Dutch sources this is Albatros-built 5584/18, landed at IJzendijke, 15 Oct 1918. Pilot, Uffz. Alfred Baum of 1. Seeflug Abteilung, Marine Jagd Stab IV.

Does anyone know if 115 is a unit code or a proper German Navy WWI serial? I know of a serial list which contains only seaplanes. On that list 115 is not a D.VII and by 1918 the numbers ran much higher.

By the way, the fourth picture reveals that the (Army) serial is 5288 (18), not 5584. The rudder also reads 'Fok D.7' and then something in brackets; not OAW, I think.

Thanks for any insights.

[musec04]

Hello Petrusja,


According to Jon Guttman in Naval Aces of World War I P.49 Fokker D.VII (Alb) D.5584/18 belonged to MFJ V (MFJ = Marinefeldjasta). The aircraft serial was D.5584/18 as you correctly notice.The Marine Feld Jasta aeroplanes usually operated with Idflieg serials as assigned to army aircraft as is the case here. Also Guttman has the pilot as Vzflgmstr Karl Engelfried.



I'm not sure about the significance of the nummber 115 on the rudder, but its not a naval serial. Naval landplane serial number LF.115 was a much earlier Albatros.


Thanks for the link to the interesting photos.


Regards,


Clint

[Petrusja]

Thanks Clint.


But on the rudder it says D.7 (...) 5288, so that would seem to be the correct Idflieg serial? (The 10th photo is sharp).


Peter

[musec04]

Hi Petrusja,


The D 7 refers to the type I assume. Apologies, as I missed that. The machine would indeed appear to be Fokker D.VII (Alb) D.5288/18. So not therefore D.5584/18. The work I referenced in my previous post has a Flgmt Baum being interned in Holland so if the name, Alfred Baum, in your first post is correct he belonged to MFJ V.


So the dutch sources you reference state the plane was D.5584/18. Do they also include photos of the machine ?


Regards,


Clint

[Petrusja]

Ah, yes, it does read (Alb) between the brackets, now I see. Thanks.

No, they only have one of the same photos. They say it was interned by the Dutch, and that the Dutch serial F-257 was probably allocated. Edit: F-227.

Can you teach me about Idflieg serials? They are not specific per aircraft type, but specific for the aircraft class such as 'D' for biplane fighter?

So if it reads Fok D.VII 1234/18 on the fuselage, the serial is really D.1234/18, and there could also be a C.1234/18 reconnaisssance aircraft?

[musec04]

Hi Petrusja,


Idflieg serials: There was a seperate number range for each category and within each category a new series for each year thus


D.1234/17 was a Siemens Schuckert D.1b
D.1234/18 was a LFG Roland D.VIa


C.1234/17 was a Albatros C.XII (OAW)
C.1234/18 was a Halberstadt CL.II


There was an incomplete list, that was not updated for sometime on the net. I'll see if I can find it on wayback and post the link if I can find it. Update it is available at : http://airplane.designation-systems.net/


Just a few words though it was a laudable attempt by Roger on the subject but further information has emerged since and many more serials are know known and there are also a few questionable entries. Still I believe it may serve as a good starting point.



Regards,


Clint

[Petrusja]

Thanks!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Petrusja

Ah, yes, it does read (Alb) between the brackets, now I see. Thanks.

No, they only have one of the same photos. They say it was interned by the Dutch, and that the Dutch serial F-257 was probably allocated.

Indeed a very interesting aircraft/photos and also a very interesting site. Thanks for posting it. Pity they know so little about what they show.

There has been many articles written about aircraft interned/crashed in Holland during WW 1 such as Cross & Cockade (both the British and US version a la Over the Front) and Air Enthusiast, just to mention three.
In all of them the serial number is quoted as 5584/18.
All of them also states Flugm. Karl Engelfried landed at Ijzendijke 15.10.1918
The unit is interesting and new to me. The only reference I have says Seefront Staffel. Only one source mentions the odd '115' on the fin but then says it was 'F115' (no F visible to me...)
The very tiny serial number (Bestellnummer) on the rudder is indeed intriguing and to be honest, they look very odd. I don't believe any German would have written the type as D.7 for instance, only D.VII. I have never myself seen a serial number painted in this way. Asking my wife (who knows nothing about serial numbers and such things), her initial reaction was it looked more like graffiti than a serious attempt of numbering an aircraft. I have to agree. This cannot be a factory marking. Would the Germans themselves have done it? Does not sound very serious either, so the only alternative to me is that someone from Holland has done it after it came down. So for the time being I am still treating this aircraft as 5584/18 mostly due to former Dutch sources which must have been originally been taken from Dutch files. Which is correct and which is wrong? No idea really.
Unfortunately no serial number can be seen anywhere else....

Finally the aircraft did not become F257 (that number belonged to a batch of Schwerin built aircraft taken by Fokker to Holland after the Armistice) but F227.

Cheers
Stig
Cheers
Stig

[musec04]

Hi Stig,


I've just been looking through Albatros Publications various volumes of the Fokker D.VII Anthology. Interestingly Vol.2 has a couple of photos of D.7 (OAW)2010/18 on the inside front cover. Reading further P.25 shows that the arabic style numerals were used rather than the more familiar roman style on early machines and further also on various components of the aircraft.So possibly on the rudder also, although I believe the aircraft in Petrusja's link is the first time I've seen this.


So while accepting your reasoning that D5584/18 was flown by Engelfried and taken over by the dutch, I'm wondering if in fact the aircraft shown in Petrusja's link is another impounded machine and in fact D.5288/18. It would certainly be interesting to know the serial number of the Fokker D.VII flown by Baum of MFJ IV. the reference to Marine Jagd Stab IV. in Petrusja's post might lead one to believe that this is a MFJ IV machine.



Regards,


Clint

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by musec04

Hi Stig,
I've just been looking through Albatros Publications various volumes of the Fokker D.VII Anthology. Interestingly Vol.2 has a couple of photos of D.7 (OAW)2010/18 on the inside front cover. Reading further P.25 shows that the arabic style numerals were used rather than the more familiar roman style on early machines and further also on various components of the aircraft.So possibly on the rudder also, although I believe the aircraft in Petrusja's link is the first time I've seen this.

So while accepting your reasoning that D5584/18 was flown by Engelfried and taken over by the dutch, I'm wondering if in fact the aircraft shown in Petrusja's link is another impounded machine and in fact D.5288/18. It would certainly be interesting to know the serial number of the Fokker D.VII flown by Baum of MFJ IV. the reference to Marine Jagd Stab IV. in Petrusja's post might lead one to believe that this is a MFJ IV machine.
Regards,
Clint

OhOh

Stick your neck out and it gets cut off straight away...

Very typically I never bought the Fokker D.VII Anthology books. The Dutch photo is of a Alb built aircraft while you refer to an OAW built one.
Are those photos you look at the same style, ie extremely small on the rudder and looks like they were painted with "the left hand"?

I am also quite positive there are no hidden/unknown force landings in the Dutch archives. This is one and the same aircraft, no doubt about it.
The question is which one, D5584/18 or D5288/18.
I am still suspicious about the D5288/18 painted on the rudder. It does not look OK to me even if we now can say a few aircraft did receive D.7 instead D.VII markings.

Just like you I am also quite intrigued about who this Alfred Baum guy was. There was quite a few D.VIIs escaping from perhaps Belgium(?) 13.11.1918, none listed with a pilot's name.

Petrusja
Can you verify your source and why they say Baum and not Engelfried?

Cheers
Stig