Martin Becker vs Lancaster PG-S LL904, 27 April 1944

[Kenny Horne]

Dear ladies and gentlemen,

My name is Ken Horne and I am researching the life of my Uncle W/O Jimmy C Horne, RCAF who died 27 April 1944. He was a Lancaster navigator with RAF 619. My goal with this research is to write a short history of his life to give to my own son Jimmy.

My interest today involves his final flight, especially from the perspective of the Luftwaffe.

Here is what I know from primary documents: from letters home from the Canadian govt. the crash site was at Leirbach, near Oppenau in Germany. From the 619 Squadron Operations Record Book, the Whinfield crew (Jimmy’ s pilot) was detailed in PG-S (LL904) for the 26/27 April 1944 raid on Schweinfurt. From the Bomber Command Report on Night Operations, the route map there is a little black flag, which would have been near Oppenau. I am presuming that someone in the bomber stream witnessed the attack.

What I have been told, though I have not seen for myself, is that Martin Becker shot down Lancaster LL904 for his 28th victory.

My question for the group, is there is any further information of this engagement? Details of Becker’s aircraft, where he may have been stationed, anything really. I have read the obvious Wikipedia type bios of the man, and am quite fascinated.

Thank you

Ken Horne,
Edmonton, Canada

[David P. Williams]

Ken,

Becker took off from Illesheim at 00.25 hours flying an Me 110 coded MK.

He landed back at Illesheim at 03.06 hours having claimed 3 Lancasters (one was turned down) and being airborne for a total of 161 minutes. These, according to my records, were his 28th and 29th victories recorded at 01.30 and 01.36 hours.

These victories were recorded as being shot down in the area of Echterdingen/Lierbach Planquadrate QR3 and Bosingen Planquadrate BS7.

I will check these locations against where your Uncle's aircraft came down to see if they are close.

Could you send me a PM as I am currently writing a biography about Martin Becker.

All the best,

David

[Theo Boiten]

Hi Kenny,

Here's what I have:

Oblt. Martin Becker: 28 2./NJG6 Lancaster Lierbach (QR 3): 5.000 m. 01.30 44 Sqn Lancaster ME730 or 619 Sqn Lancaster LL904

Cheers, Theo

[David P. Williams]

Ken,

Having re-read your message it would seem that Becker's first confirmed victory that night could be your Uncle's Lancaster, shot down at 01.30 hours in the vicinity of Lierbach, as this matches the entry in Johanssen's log book (Becker's Funker or Radar Operator).

[Peglar]

Dear Ken, do you have a Foto from the Lancaster LL 904 ? I have a few Fotos from Martin Becker, some are made at Crash Places with Lancasters - as he write - his 28 Victory was at 25. April 1944 - a Halifax near Karlsruhe.

Greetings from Germany

Peglar

[Kenny Horne]

Gentlemen, Thank you so very much for this information. My family and I are grateful.

Thank you Theo. Where was that information taken from? Does the "or" indicate that it is uncertain as to whether or not it was Becker that destroyed LL904? 70 years on doesn't make this any easier does it :-)

Peglar, I must say that no, I do not have any pictures of LL904. Though the crew were on their 20th operation, the aircraft was nearly new, only it's second mission. Likely there were no pictures of her. I would love to see anything, including if there is anything of the crash site. I am aware that two bombers went down near each other, so near in fact that the unidentified remains of both crews were buried together, both at Oppenau and later at Durnbach/Bad Tolz.

Also, Peglar, what is that document that you have attached? That is fascinating. Previously my uncle's story always ended with "no further contact" from the RAF. But certainly someone, likely Herr Becker, knew more of the story. To see further notation in German took my breath away.

Thanks again,

Kenny Horne
Edmonton, Canada

[Theo Boiten]

Hi Kenny,

The Becker claim info stems from various primary sources: the War Diaries of Stab NJG6, the flying log book of one of Beckers crew members, and the claims listings that were compiled by the German Air Ministry.

The 'or' simply means that there are two different heavy bomber losses that match to the claim by Becker, I am not sure yet which of the two.

Do you, from the records of the only PoW of the crew (F/Sgt. Young RNZAF), or the records of the two RCAF crew members who died, have any further information as to the exact time of crash of LL904?

Cheers, Theo

[Kenny Horne]

Hello Theo,

The only details that I have from the Canadian government are from the RCAF Casualty Officer in a letter dated 2nd May 1946.

"Dear Mr. Horne,

Although no definite information has as yet been received concerning the fate of your son, Warrant Officer Class 2 James Chandler Horne, information has been secured from captured german documents which confirms that already received concerning his aircraft and crew of which it is felt you would wish to be advised.

These documents state that the aircraft of which your son was a member of the crew was shot down by an enemy night fighter and crashed at 1:40 am on April 27th, 1944, near Lierbach which is located three kilometres North East of Oppenau, Germany. The documents further state that seven members of the crew lost their lives at that time, Sergeant Watson and Flight Sergeant Wickham of the Royal Air Force together with five persons listed as unknown, all of whom were buried on the following day in the Oppenau Cemetery.

The Missing Research and Enquiry Service and the Graves Registration Unit in that area are doing everything possible to identify the persons buried as unknown and to secure definite information concerning the fate of your son and the remainder of his crew and just as soon as word is received you will be at once advised. I am sure you will realize however that in the view of the vast number of enquiries confronting these enquiry Services, some considerable time may elapse before more word is received.

May I extend to you and the members of your family my most sincere sympathy in this period of continued anxiety..."

This seems to be a match to the information you provided, with a 10 minute reported difference, though I must imagine that 10 minutes would be reasonable. I doubt that everyone involved would have synchronized their watches that evening.

Understandably, very little was know of my Uncle's fate, and in fact it wasn't until 8th of January 1945 that my family received a "presumed dead" notification. As there were eight members of his crew that night (2nd Dickie F S Young RNZAF) and there were only seven bodies recovered, the original letters home provided a faint hope that someone survived. In fact someone did, F S Young, of whom I know very little. An internet search provided me with the following: POW Camp 357, POW #3715. In fact I am even confused as to whether his initials were F.S. or whether that refers to his rank, Flight Sergeant.

Thank you for your continued assistance,

Kenny Horne,
Edmonton, Canada

[Peglar]

Hello Ken, here are some Informations about the ME 631

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...il-1944/page2&


http://www.crashplace.de/Zeitungsber...010%5B1%5D.pdf


or google crashplace Schwarzmiss

[Kenny Horne]

Peglar, thank you for the links and the photo, the crash site - site it very interesting, I'm sure that I will spend too many minutes there when I should be working more productively :-)

Kenny