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  #11  
Old 3rd September 2021, 00:08
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Broncazonk Broncazonk is offline
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

Dear Andrey,

I am asking questions that pertain to the Luftwaffe's Experten. Most specifically, I am not trying to insult the Soviet Union or its air force.

Here is another example of what I am talking about.

Russian Combat Methods in World War II, Department of the Army pamphlet No. 20-230, Washington D.C., November 1950, written by Generaloberst Erhard Rauss, Commander, Fourth and Third Panzer Armies.

The Red Air Force - Chapter 14 - A Luftwaffe Evaluation

[...] The Russians were in a fair way to lose their last aircraft by this completely futile commitment in detail. True, the Russian Air Force was able to replace the lost planes, but it never did recover from the shock effect of the German fighters. The superiority of German fighters over Russian planes of any type was evident right up to the end of the war.

[...] In conclusion, it may be said that the Red Air Force, although conceived and built up on a large scale, was very primitively trained. Its will to fight, its aggressive spirit, and its mastery of technical aspects left much to be desired. Although constantly superior in numbers to the Luftwaffe, it was always inferior when it came to combat. Usually a small number of German fighters sufficed to clear the skies of Russian planes.

If Generaloberst Rauss's assessment is correct, the mystery remains: why didn't the Luftwaffe produce multiple Experten with 300+ historically verifiable victory claims? And in all honesty, there should be at least one with 500 historically verifiable victory claims.

Once again, the Luftwaffe went east with a core number of fighter pilots who had combat experience in Spain, Poland, France and Britain. And from the very beginning, in 1941, the Russians were putting up poorly-trained (barely able to fly) pilots that were flying vastly inferior aircraft, in astonishing numbers.

When the Japanese tried this it resulted in The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot where, "four Japanese air strikes involved 373 carrier aircraft, of which 243 were lost and 130 returned to the carriers; many of them were subsequently lost when Taiho and Shōkaku were sunk. After the second day of the battle, [Japanese] losses totaled three carriers, more than 350 carrier aircraft, and around 200 land-based aircraft." {For a loss of approximately 40 US navy aircraft lost to enemy action.}

Why didn't the Luftwaffe record multiple Turkey Shoot days?

Bronc
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  #12  
Old 3rd September 2021, 01:31
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

Dear Bronc,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncazonk View Post
If Generaloberst Rauss's assessment is correct
In short, he is basically wrong.

Quote:
The superiority of German fighters over Russian planes of any type was evident right up to the end of the war.
On average, one German plane and one German pilot were more effective than one Soviet plane and one Soviet pilot, indeed. But the war isn't a tennis competition.

Quote:
Usually a small number of German fighters sufficed to clear the skies of Russian planes.
It is simply untrue. Usually German fighters, in small number or not, couldn't clear the skies (though they could inflict some losses, sometimes heavy). And it was a permanent problem for German Army (Heer).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncazonk View Post
Once again, the Luftwaffe went east with a core number of fighter pilots who had combat experience in Spain, Poland, France and Britain. And from the very beginning, in 1941, the Russians were putting up poorly-trained (barely able to fly) pilots that were flying vastly inferior aircraft, in astonishing numbers.
Why didn't the Luftwaffe record multiple Turkey Shoot days?
Apparently because the real situation wasn't so grotesque.

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #13  
Old 3rd September 2021, 01:38
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
A combination of competitive young men, few women, horsepower, adrenalin and benzedrine, I suspect.
Yup, that nicely sums it, Nick.
I had lots of daily contact with the young Republic F-105 Thunderchief pilots from the 388th Tac Fighter Wing at Korat RTAFB/Thailand in 1967 and they were all of what we said above - a real handful.

L.
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  #14  
Old 3rd September 2021, 06:04
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

Phillips Payson O'Brien in his 626-page masterpiece, "How The War Was Won," (Cambridge University Press) mentions something that bears on this topic.

Page 65: [...] "There is something absolutely perplexing about the lack of damage that the USSR was able to inflict despite having so many planes. From early 1942 onwards, The Eastern Front was, even during the height of the Kursk campaign, a minority front for the Luftwaffe. For the rest of the war, between 80 and 70 percent of the Luftwaffe, numerically, was always deployed against the British and Americans. And the loss rates for the Luftwaffe fighting against the British and Americans were much higher, even considering that the best pilots and equipment were sent to the west. The Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front was therefore made up of the less-skilled German pilots, often flying out of date technology that had proved to be ineffective during the Battle of Britain in 1940--such as the JU-87 (Stuka) dive-bomber and the HE-111. Yet, even with the Soviet's overwhelming numerical superiority the loss rates they were able to inflict on the Luftwaffe were modest to say the least. Much of that seems to be down to two elements: the relatively poor performance of Soviet aircraft and the weakness of their pilot-training schemes."

So please bear with me. I only know what I read...

Bronc
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  #15  
Old 3rd September 2021, 18:26
James A Pratt III James A Pratt III is offline
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

Correction the book was "The Taste of War: World War II and the Battle for Food" Lizzie Collingham

online at afhra.af.mil are USAF historical studies no 169 is Technical training within the German Luftwaffe and many others on the Luftwaffe

then there is the book "The German Air Force 1933-1945 an Antomy of Failure Mathew Cooper
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  #16  
Old 3rd September 2021, 19:01
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

A highly dynamic situation cannot be boiled down to a few words or even a few books. Thanks to recent research, the situation on the Eastern Front is becoming clearer.
Planes were not just shot down by other planes. And the Soviet Union, along with England, could place an order with the United States for replacement, or additional aircraft through Lend-Lease.
If pilots were lacking, the U.S. had plenty. Immediately after the war, a photo was published of a large number of finished but not delivered B-17s. One-sided comparisons are rarely helpful.


Ed
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  #17  
Old 3rd September 2021, 20:53
Stig1207 Stig1207 is offline
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

Quote:
When the Japanese tried this it resulted in The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot where, "four Japanese air strikes involved 373 carrier aircraft, of which 243 were lost and 130 returned to the carriers; many of them were subsequently lost when Taiho and Shōkaku were sunk. After the second day of the battle, [Japanese] losses totaled three carriers, more than 350 carrier aircraft, and around 200 land-based aircraft." {For a loss of approximately 40 US navy aircraft lost to enemy action.}

Why didn't the Luftwaffe record multiple Turkey Shoot days?

There are no American aces with a 100 or even 50 victories; why would you expect Lw aces with 500? Their scores on the Eastern Front were very high, compared to any other front or theater.


On July 5 1943, first day of Kursk, the Soviets did lose a number of aircraft comparable to the Japanese losses on the first day of the Turkey Shoot.
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  #18  
Old 3rd September 2021, 21:11
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

Dear Bronc,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncazonk View Post
Phillips Payson O'Brien in his 626-page masterpiece, "How The War Was Won," (Cambridge University Press) mentions something that bears on this topic.
... From early 1942 onwards, The Eastern Front was, even during the height of the Kursk campaign, a minority front for the Luftwaffe. For the rest of the war, between 80 and 70 percent of the Luftwaffe, numerically, was always deployed against the British and Americans.
Don't know why the author of masterpiece gives the wrong data.

Quote:
The Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front was therefore made up of the less-skilled German pilots, often flying out of date technology that had proved to be ineffective during the Battle of Britain in 1940--such as the JU-87 (Stuka) dive-bomber and the HE-111...
Ju87 had proved to be very effective in May-Jun.40, had proved to be ineffective during BoB few months later, then proved to be effective in Mediterranean against the same RAF. What an unstable weapon!

But it is off-topic. Meanwhile, the author actually gives an answer to your question ("Why didn't the Luftwaffe record multiple Turkey Shoot days?"):
Quote:
The Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front was therefore made up of the less-skilled German pilots
You can undoubtedly evaluate the accuracy of this conclusion yourself.

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #19  
Old 4th September 2021, 19:31
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

In 1942 over half of the LW losses occurred on the Eastern front up to middle Sept 42 and again in Dec 42 and Jan 43. And usually the Eastern Front was somewhat safer for LW aircrews so probably strength figures were even more focused on the east. in July 1943 a little over 30 % of the LW Jagdgruppen were stationed in the East but because most of the bombers, ground-attack and dive-bombers were there as were almost all army co-op units and all Störkampfstaffeln, so even if almost all night fighter units were in the West or in Reich IMHO one can say that well over 33 % of the combat a/c of the LW were stationed in the East at that time.

It is true that Germans were able to used Ju 87 Ds and He 111 Hs in daylight in the East much longer than in the West. But Ju 87 Ds were deadly effective in the Aegean even in October 1943. And I wonder the claim that “the best pilots … were sent to the west.” I have not hear that the Allied pilots thought that e.g. the pilots of JG 77 and II./JG51 they met over Tunisia were somewhat second-rate. And late war Soviet planes as Yak-3s, La-5FNs and La-7s or Tu-2s were not bad planes.

The Finns, they fought in the sector which was seen as secondary by VVS during most of the war, saw that during the early part of the Oper. Barbarossa VVS pilots were still well trained and tenacious. In 1942 and up to mid-1943 many Soviet pilots were poorly trained and their morale varied, sometimes fighter escort ran away when Finnish fighters attacked leaving their charges to their own devices but sometimes the escort fighters fought to the end, effectively protecting their charges. Also Germans warned Finns in late 1943 that Soviet had very well trained units which could execute well-planned effective strikes against important pin-point targets. Finns also noted that in 1943 Soviet pilots were tactically sound but still usually their shooting skills were poor. In 1944 even that was improved.
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  #20  
Old 5th September 2021, 03:58
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Re: The Victories of Luftwaffe Experten (Ost) - New Considerations

For page 65 of, "How The War Was Won," Phillips Payson O'Brien lists the following citations:

174. Muller, "The German Air War in Russia" (Baltimore, 1992,) pp. 192, 221.

175. See Galland Interview in Spaatz MSS 134. (Galland Report, The Birth, Life and Death of the German Day Fighter)

I don't have the details of either.

Bronc
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