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  #1  
Old 26th September 2005, 20:21
Hans W. Koerfges Hans W. Koerfges is offline
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Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

Hello,

at the 15th of October 1943 around 07,30 a.m. Otto Kittel shot down a LAC3. Does anyone have infomration about that sortie, even the Abschussmeldung.

My interest is to know how big the crew of Otto Kittel that morning was. All information I found even contacts with his son were very little and in the literature about Kittel I found nothing.

Thanks
Hans W. Koerfges
Düsseldorf
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Old 26th September 2005, 21:04
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

In fact, Kittel claimed two LaGG-3s on that mission - at 0737 and 0738 hours - and an Il-2 at 0804 hours. Since Uffz Josef Kammerl and Oblt. Kurt-Reinhard Fischer (both of I./JG 54, where Kittel too served) also claimed a LaGG-3 and an Il-2 in the same area and at the same time (0742 and 0801 hours), we can assume that Kittel flew with at least a Schwarm of four. So maybe Ofw Werner Koerfges was the "fourth man" and was shot down on this mission?

Sorry, no Abschussmeldung. I assume it's been lost.
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Old 26th September 2005, 21:40
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

Kittel also claimed an Il-2 at 8:04 and a third LaGG-3 at 1415.
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Old 27th September 2005, 14:48
Hans W. Koerfges Hans W. Koerfges is offline
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

Hallo Christer,

thanks for the answer. Yes, my father was the fourth man. But he was not shot down. He deserted to Sovjet lines and handed his plane to them. His POW file from Moscow shows that the file was manipulated because the same day he should be transferred to a prisoner camp in Donez region which is more than 1.000 km south west of Vitebsk. In real he was transfered from the Sovjets to a special camp east of Moswow and at teh end of 1944 he did training to become an agent. After he came back home in Nov. 1949 he acted for decades as an agent for the Sovjets. From that time I have a number of stories and I know the name of his Secret Service Officer from eastern part of Germany which introduced himself when he visited my family as an Do 17 pilot which he never was.

Thats a short version of a long story. Kittel did after 16. of October 1943 an officila Verlustmeldung about my father which is definately false because nobody was interested to become trouble for a pilot deserted to enemy lines.

Regards and godd luck for the nect Volume of Red Star and Black Cross

Hans
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Old 27th September 2005, 17:46
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

Hans, what you say about Werner Koerfges is truly amazing. Do you have any written statements by your father which would confirm that? That would be very interesting. Also, it would be very interesting if you could develop the story with more details.
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Old 27th September 2005, 19:22
Hans W. Koerfges Hans W. Koerfges is offline
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

Christer,

I have the file from Moscow military archive, the official Verlustmeldung which ic definately false. Than I have information from Historians, forme POW and a lot mor small details.

Unfortunately another file of my father is in a second military archive in Moscow. Some people told me that in this secret archive all originals about collaborateuers and other friends of the Sovjets. To research in that archive must be very difficult because it is open some time than close and so on, due to Russian politics. This secret file of my father is the last brike in my story to bind everthin togeter.

By the way, only my mother has knoledge of the truth but her tongue is sealed. My father died in 1994. Till that time he told a totaly different story about his military time as professionell soldier. Due to that he shot down 6 Russian arplanes. I reseached the datas and found out, that he shot down the first plane before he arrived in Vitebsk airfield. No you can say he had mighty brain power and could do things normal pilots even did not try.

If you an idea how I can get to the sevret military archiv I would very much appreciate to have some contacts. I would pay for that because I so much intereeste knowing the truth.

Regards
Hans
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Old 28th September 2005, 23:09
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

Which secret "second archive" do you have in mind?
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Old 29th September 2005, 05:54
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

I for one am fascinated with the account of Werner Koerfges as told by his son Hans above. As Christer says its truly amazing. I hope that Hans plans on publishing his findings with more details in the future.
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Old 29th September 2005, 11:42
Hans W. Koerfges Hans W. Koerfges is offline
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

Hello Christer,

the so called secret archive should be part of the military archive in Moscow. I do not know the name. The existence of this archive I got from Mr. Wagenlehner from Bonn. He told me about some researche in that archive but could not say when he is able to go next time. This information a got 1 year ago. Maybe only Russians can do researches today.

Hans
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Old 29th September 2005, 11:50
Hans W. Koerfges Hans W. Koerfges is offline
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Re: Otto Kittel - Oct. 15 1943

Good morning Wotan,

the story is worth to be published. I intent to do it when my mother will be gone. She is 91 right now and topfit. If I would publish the story right now I would harm her to much because she is not able to change her mind at all. She belonges to this German generation which was cheated all her live due to political circumstances. She never could make peace wiht todays Germany. Those people you can find all over Germany because they are raised in a time where the most important rule for people was to be calm because the authorities acting always in the right manner.

If you are interested I can send you a description in English language about my home area around Düsseldorf to my American relatives some times ago. This will give an impression whithout any make up.

Hans
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