Ju 188 - first combat, Lincoln, August 1943

[David2703]

Hi,

I'm looking for information on the apparently first combat mission if the Junkers Ju 188 on 17/18 august 1943 against Lincoln. The last time this was discussed on this forum was 2005-ish and many questions remain.

Did any 188s take part in this raid at all? There are well known pictures of what is supposed to be Hans Altrogges aircraft in grey-black (and later mäander?) camo with a Y-Verfahren antenna in which he is said to have led two other 188s into action that night. (The date or background of the photo are unknown though)

Still, I haven't yet encountered any primary sources on that. It is also said that Do 217s took part as pathfinders. Altrogge is said to have flown Do 217 Z6+BH with KG 66 - is there a connection?

However, I'm not sure what unit the Ju 188s belonged to at the time - the E.Kdo.d.Lw. 188, KG 6 or KG 66, and if this was indeed the first combat mission of the 188.

Can anyone elaborate?

[Brian Bines]

The Ulf Balke KG 2 history shows an attack by Do 217s of KG2 with target marking by KG 66 also in Do 217s. There is an extensive ADIK report on the raid which describes the initial dropping of target finding flares as being carried out by a KG 2 aircraft flown by Gp.Kom, being followed up by aircraft dropping incendiaries on these flares for the main force . Additionally sea markers were dropped at a turning point off the English coast . The only mention of a Ju 188 was in the GQM report of 22nd August which shows Ju 188 E-1 3E+LH 260176 of 3/KG6 in a landing accident at Chievres with 25% damage on 17th Aug. This 188 was originally typed in as a Home 'H' flight but this was crossing out and changed to an 'F' flight. There was no clarification in the Horn KG 6 history as to the possible mission of this aircraft or KG 6 taking any part in the Lincoln raid.
That's all I could find out about this night ,

Regards
Brian Bines

[ghostwriter]

hello david,

i found this:

A conversion testing unit was formed up in May and after testing were attached to an operational unit, with the first mission, an attack by three Ju 188E-1s on a factory in Lincoln, Lincolnshire taking place on 18 August 1943.[3]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_188


best regards
ghost

[David2703]

Thanks Brian, interesting to see that there is no mention of KG 66 at all. Also, I have seen it suggested that Balke did not mention any units but KG 2 since that is the focus of his book. Maybe someone with access to the book can confirm?

As for the GQM report, is it common to actually find unit actions or just crashes/damaged aircraft in there?

Ghost, thanks, the reference on wiki is given as Air International April 1982, p.183. Quite an old source, but maybe someone has access and can elaborate?

Also, I noticed that Altrogges supposed mount has a ‚TN‘ at the top of the fin. If this was part of the unit code, the full version would be Z6+TN. However, N is usually the code for 5. Staffel II. Gruppe, right? KG 66 didn't however have a II. Gruppe at that time. So either that marking is not the unit code or the picture was taken later than has been assumed to date. Or is there something about KG 66 Gruppe structure that differs from the regular designation system?

[ghostwriter]

well,

the german wikipedia for "Ju188" says the following:

Use
In the end, only the Kampfgeschwader 2, 6 and 26 partly got the Ju 188. The II. Group 2 of KG 2 participated with 35 Ju 188E and group I of KG 6 with 41 Ju 188A in the operation Steinbock.

maybe balke came to the same conclusion?
right, his book has its focus on KG 2 ...

cross reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Steinbock


ghost

[Marcel van Heijkop]

Originally Posted by David2703

Hi,

I'm looking for information on the apparently first combat mission if the Junkers Ju 188 on 17/18 august 1943 against Lincoln. The last time this was discussed on this forum was 2005-ish and many questions remain.


Chris Goss still states the same in his article on the history of the Ju 188 in the June 2019 issue of Flypast and I have no reason to doubt it as Chris usually knows his stuff.

Did any 188s take part in this raid at all?

Definitely, according to his FLugbuch Lt. Hans Altrogge flew a Ju 188 on this mission, taking off from Soesterberg (Netherlands) at 23:17 hrs on 17 August 1943 and landing at Deelen (Netherlands) at 02:39 hrs the next morning. Unfortunately Altrogge was very sloppy in recording aircraft codes in his Flugbuch (or just didn't bother about something as trivial as aircraft codes..) and subsequently we don't know the aircraft Kennzeichen (code) on this (or any other) Altrogge flight. As I never saw his Soldbuch (or copy) or his Military Career Summary, strictly speaking we can't even be sure whether Altrogge was already part of I./KG66, however the context of all his other flights and the interview I had with him strongly suggest so. In fact, latest info suggests that at that time he may have been part of the mysterious "Hör - und Störstaffel" (3./KG66), a special airborne intercept and jamming unit. The remarks in his Flugbuch for this mission ("Auftrag: Horcheinsatz im Rahmen 2. und 3./KG2" Note: Possibly II. and III.KG2 meant) also points in this direction. Altrogge is 100% certain associated with Ju 88 S-1 aircraft and 1./KG66 in 1944.


There are well known pictures of what is supposed to be Hans Altrogges aircraft in grey-black (and later mäander?) camo with a Y-Verfahren antenna in which he is said to have led two other 188s into action that night. (The date or background of the photo are unknown though)

These pictures came from Altrogge and were first used by Alfred Price to my knowledge. (Price met Altrogge when he was stationed with RAF Germany, I believe.) As you mention, they are supposed to be his aircraft, but so far I have never seen proper captions (let alone dates) for these pictures, not even sure if Price ever got them..My gut feeling says that this aircraft can be dated 1943 or very early 1944 as the 2./KG66 Ju 188 E aircraft equipped with Truhe (Gee) during Unternehmen Steinbock (The Baby Blitz) looked totally different.


Still, I haven't yet encountered any primary sources on that. It is also said that Do 217s took part as pathfinders. Altrogge is said to have flown Do 217 Z6+BH with KG 66 - is there a connection?


Other than the Italeri box art, I have never seen any evidence of a Do 217 Z6+BH linked to Altrogge..However, from pictures it is clear that Altrogge once flew a Ju 88 S-1 with Z6+BH as aircraft code.


However, I'm not sure what unit the Ju 188s belonged to at the time - the E.Kdo.d.Lw. 188, KG 6 or KG 66, and if this was indeed the first combat mission of the 188.

See above.

Can anyone elaborate?

Best regards,


Marcel

[Brian Bines]

Hi David,

Balke did mention KG 66 on the Lincoln raid but flying Do 217s . As regards I/KG 66 it did have 5 Staffeln the RAF assessment of these in March 1944 was

1st staffel Navigational aids uncertain
2nd " Pathfinding using copied Gee (later Truhe system)
3rd " known as the Storstaffel (jamming Staffel) and radio interception
4th " non operational perfecting Egon apparatus
5th " Known as ''E'' Staffel pathfinding using the Egon procedure
(ie Ju 88 S-1 Z6+IN shot down24/25th march off Brighton one POW )

I do not know when the 4th and 5th became operational

Regards
Brian Bines


Just to add to Marcel's post the 3rd staffel did lose Ju 88 S-1 Z6+EL on 29-1-44 as well as its three man crew it carried a Horch Funker which I think was an English speaker to listen into (interfere with ?) RAF N/F instructions.
As regards Hans Altrogge he is shown in the Horn KG 6 history as being with 15/KG6 no dates or details given

[Marcel van Heijkop]

Originally Posted by David2703

Thanks Brian, interesting to see that there is no mention of KG 66 at all. Also, I have seen it suggested that Balke did not mention any units but KG 2 since that is the focus of his book. Maybe someone with access to the book can confirm?

As for the GQM report, is it common to actually find unit actions or just crashes/damaged aircraft in there?

Ghost, thanks, the reference on wiki is given as Air International April 1982, p.183. Quite an old source, but maybe someone has access and can elaborate?

Also, I noticed that Altrogges supposed mount has a ‚TN‘ at the top of the fin. If this was part of the unit code, the full version would be Z6+TN. However, N is usually the code for 5. Staffel II. Gruppe, right? KG 66 didn't however have a II. Gruppe at that time. So either that marking is not the unit code or the picture was taken later than has been assumed to date. Or is there something about KG 66 Gruppe structure that differs from the regular designation system?

The "TN" code is still a mystery for me as well... I./KG66 had a 5th Staffel using the EGON navigation system at least by the end of 1943, but to my knowledge they mostly used Ju 88 S-1 aircraft and Altrogge never belonged to them.. Or could it be part of the Stammkenzeichen (the aircraft's factory code)?...

Regards,

Marcel

[Chris Goss]

I have all of Price's Altrogge photos & can have a closer look when I am home from France. As to the 188 involvement in the Lincoln attack the only firm evidence is the ac that was damaged

[David2703]

Hi Marcel,

Thanks for that extensive reply. Regarding the photos, it is certainly true that there is no explicit evidence connecting Altrogge to the aircraft. However, it seems quite likely that it was his at some point, otherwise why would he have taken a bunch of pictures of it? Also, I’m intrigued that you said the Gee-equipped 188s looked totally different.
Can you elaborate on that?

Chris, thanks that would be much appreciated. Given what Marcel wrote about Altrogges Flugbuch, wouldn’t you also count that as evidence towards the participation of Ju 188s in the Lincoln raid in addition to the crashed aircraft?

Brian, thanks. It seems that there are two likely possibilities regarding ‘TN’.

1. It was part of the unit code Z6+TN and the 188 belonged to 5./KG 66 that actually then did not exclusively use Ju 88 S versions. It may or may not be Altrogges aircraft, maybe it was used as a replacement for an aircraft of his actual Staffel, whichever it may be, at the time? I think this was quite common during 43/44.

2. It was, as Marcel suggested, part of the factory code and had no connection to the unit designation. This seems somewhat unlikely to me though, especially given the position at the top of the fin and the fact that it was applied on top of the paintjob.

It could off course be totally unrelated to either of the above, be not actually from KG 66 (although the Y-Verfahren antenna suggests it was), or indeed be Altrogges personal mount and he was actually with 5. Staffel in 1943.

Also, I have seen it suggested that TN was photographed again at a later date, showing a green Wellenmuster camo, different spinners and a 20mm gun in the nose. However, from the picture itself there is no evidence that this is indeed TN.