JG 52 victories

[Laurent Rizzotti]

One question for our Russian friends: on 7 November 1943 Ltn. Franz Schall of 3./JG 53 claimed three U-2 shot down at 1505, 1506 and 1507 hrs in Pl.Qu. 34 Ost/47771 at an altitude of 2 m.

The above coordinate is according to my calculation in the marshs east of the Perekop isthmus between Crimea and Ukrain. The altitude given is very low and I guess the aircraft were attacked while flying on the desk over water or marsh.

An U-2 formation flying by day close to the front was not common, so maybe it will be possible to identify the Soviet unit and airmen involved.

Thanks in advance

[Nokose]

Laurent, I'm sure you meant 3./JG 52. From just looking at a map from Andrey Kuznetsov's book on the Kerch landing there seems to have been a drop of parachute brigades in the area of Dzhankoy on the 22Sep43. The U-2 and possibly other type aircraft were probably attempting to resupply them with ammo and food.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

You're right, it is JG 52 (a typo of my part).

Supply-dropping by U-2 was common, but usually at night.

[Nokose]

Laurent, I believe it was probably a desparate situation much like at Kerch. Maybe Andrey can answer further.

I found another possible victory of II/JG 52 in the region of Leningrad for the 29 August 1941.
Stab II/JG 52 Uff. Bernhard Wilsky at 15:05 shot down a Douglas for his 7th victory, no location given. This was possibly a PS-84 (Li-2) of the GVF. III/JG 27, II/JG 53 and JG 54 did not report any such claims this day. Serzhant Ivan Ivanovich Adamov a pilot with the KBF, UVVS GVF was KIA after being shot down by a fighter near Sigalovo (which is on the southeast side of Lake Ladoga). There was another aircraft of the 29 UVVS GVF (KBF) flown by Ml. Lt. Valeriy Ivanovich Artemov that was listed as MIA that day with no location and no cause.

[Nokose]

For Mirek Wawrzynski: You were looking for the victors over some Soviet bombers in another thread on the 27Aug41. It wasn't JG 54 that you were looking for there.

Stab II/JG52 Oblt. Carl Hartmann SB-2 (11) 09:10 no location
4./JG 52 Oblt. Sigfried Simisch SB-2 (11) 09:11 no location
4./JG 52 Obfw. Adolf Reidmeir SB-2 (4) 09:11 no location

Soviet losses for 1 AE and 2 AE, 73 BAP KBF lost 3 SB and probably more from the number of MIA crew members. One pilot and 2 gunner - radio operators in the 1 AE and one pilot and three gunner-bombardiers in the 2 AE all MIA.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

One question for our Russian friends: on 7 November 1943 Ltn. Franz Schall of 3./JG 53 claimed three U-2 shot down at 1505, 1506 and 1507 hrs in Pl.Qu. 34 Ost/47771 at an altitude of 2 m.
Thanks in advance

Hello Laurent,

According to monthly report of 2.GBAD, 5-9.Nov.43 her U-2 supplied some bridgeheads of 10.Rifle Corps in Crimea, on the south coast of Sivash. 67 U-2 made 664 flights with 188 690 kg of ammo, 131 liaison officers, also 799 wounded were evacuated. 2 U-2 were downed and 4 U-2 were damaged by German fighters in the air, 2 U-2 were attacked and damaged on the ground.

7.Nov.43 on 16:00msk U-2 No.4739 (Lt Shishulin, 60.GBAP) was attacked by Bf109, and during evasive manoeuvre collided slightly with a truck and was damaged.
Also, according to monthly report, 7.Nov.43 U-2 No.3423 (Lt Chikalin, 60.GBAP) was attacked by 2 Bf109 and crashed (from H=5 m), pilot was wounded. But really it was 6.Nov.43 on 14:30 msk.

In some cases U-2 were landed to avoid the Bf109's attack and maybe Ltn. Franz Schall counted that as victories.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Nokose,

Originally Posted by Nokose

From just looking at a map from Andrey Kuznetsov's book on the Kerch landing there seems to have been a drop of parachute brigades in the area of Dzhankoy on the 22Sep43. The U-2 and possibly other type aircraft were probably attempting to resupply them with ammo and food.

Air landing on Dzhankoy was a plan only, not a real landing. The plan was abandoned due to unsuccessful Dnepr air landing operation.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Thanks Andrey

I will be interested in details of the 2 U-2 destroyed and 4 damaged in the air, to see how they may be linked to German claims.

In this area and time period, JG 52 reported the following claims:
_ on 6 Nov, Uffz Fritz Schneider of Stab I./JG 52 claimed a R-5 at 1125 hrs.
_ on 7 Nov, as said above, Lt Franz Schall of 3./JG 52 claimed three U-2 in 2 minutes at 1505-1507 hrs.
_ on 9 Nov, two battles:
1) in the morning, three U-2 were claimed shot down at 1115-1117 hrs by Uffz Bernhard Wenger (1) and Gefr Anton Resch (2) of 3./JG 52.
2) in the afternoon, Lt Franz Schall of 3./JG 52 claimed two U-2 in at 1425 hrs.
_ on 10 Nov, Uffz Alois Seibel of 3./JG 52 claimed a R-5 at 1152 hrs.

Can the U-2 of Lt Chikalin be the R-5 claimed by Schneider on the 6th ? I don't know the difference of time between Soviet and German hours ?

Thanks in advance

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Laurent,

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

I will be interested in details of the 2 U-2 destroyed and 4 damaged in the air

I didn't research these episodes especially, so have data from monthly reports and op.reports of 2.GBAD only. Regimental and other documents probably can gives more details. As you see, at least in one episode monthly report gives incorrect date.
Also, main operation zone of 2.GBAD during the time in question was Dnepr, so Division's headquarters received op.reports from Sivash area with some delay, and in the file they appeared after 15.Nov.43 and only for 6. and 7.Nov.

According to the monthly report of 2.GBAD:
6.Nov.43 2 U-2 (61.GBAP) was attacked by 2 Bf109. No.4677 burnt out, No.2945 damaged beyond repair. According to 2.GBAD op.report, on 16:30 No.5321 (St.Lt. Kryukov, 61.GBAP) was attacked by 2 Bf109 and during landing a screw and a undercarriage were damaged (it seems no damages from Bf109's fire).
7.Nov.43 No.3423 (Lt Chihalin, 60.GBAP) was attacked by 2 Bf109 and crashed (from H=5 m), pilot was wounded. As it mentioned above, according to operative report for 6.Nov, it was 6.Nov.43 on 14:30 msk.
7.Nov.43 No.4739 (Lt Shishulin, 60.GBAP) was attacked by Bf109, and during evasive manoeuvre collided slightly with a truck and was damaged. According to operative record for 7.Nov, it was 16:00 msk 7.Nov.
8.Nov.43 No.4846 (60.GBAP) was attacked by 2 Bf109 and burnt out. No 2.GBAD's op.record for the daytime of 8.Nov, so time of attacks is unknown for me.
10.Nov.43 2 U-2 (60.GBAP) were under attack of Bf109. No.4619 burnt out, No.4663 tail part breaked off, crews unharmed. No 2.GBAD's op.record for the daytime of 10.Nov, so time of attacks is unknown for me.

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

Can the U-2 of Lt Chikalin be the R-5 claimed by Schneider on the 6th ?

Yes, it seems.

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

I don't know the difference of time between Soviet and German hours ?

From 03:00 4.Oct.43 to 02:00 3.Apr.44 difference was 2 hours so 11:52 in German claims was 13:52 msk

Best regards,
Andrey

[Nokose]

So the 10Nov43 U-2 (#4619) 60 GBAP that burnt out is more then likely the R-5 claimed by Uffz. Alois Seibel 3./JG 52 at 11:52 PlQ. 47 714 at 50 m. Then "more then likely" is because that's the only one showing in Tony Wood's list and J. Prien's next volume of JFV (12/II) could have more.