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Old 19th December 2018, 11:39
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Guys

Another strange caser for us to investigate. Georg-Peter Eder has been widely credited with at least twelve Jet kills, jet evidence is completely lacking, and lacking where there should be some.
Ekdo.262 became Kom.Now, which became Jg7, the mikrofilms cover the period 5th August 1944 until 3rd December 1944, yet absolutely no Eder claims are amongst them, yet we are informed that he was injured out of the war on 22nd January 1945...…..giving a period of fifty day to make his twelve claims!
Firstly was Eder truly actually injured out on 22nd January 1945....One for Matti here>
Secondly personally I believe he was a honest claimer, but that's my feeling, can that be proved. Attached is his abschusselist with witnesses, these vary, and sometimes two per kill, also very accurate crash-sites as these come from his abscussemeldung themselves. What goes against this is his association with JG2, though as we have seen before JG2 pilots were not all making false claims.

So in short, was he wounded out on 22nd January 1945, was he honest. If he was dis-honest in his claiming(think of Walther Dahl) then perhaps the twelve jet kills come from himself, and then I guess we can disregard the figure.

Kind Regards

JohannesEder.Georg-Peter@zeugen.xls
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Old 19th December 2018, 13:04
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Dahl is not as "dishonest" as you make him out to be. Sure, you have provided evidence that his final claims are likely fictional, but there are instances where his claims DO stand up:

Walther Dahl

22.6.41/0430
"I-18"
W of Lemberg @ 1500m
23 or 28 IAP. Details pending

8.8.41/1330
DB-3
E of Majewo
11 DBAP? They suffered at least 5 losses, crews of Ml.Lt. A I Pykhtin, Serzhant A Evdokimov, Ml.Lt. P T Krashenninikov, Ml.Lt. Nikolay Ilyich Alimbarashvili and Serzhant N I Mineev all failed to return. Another possibility is 8 DBAP, crew of Lt. Ivan Yakovlevich Korovin which was definitely lost to fighters

24.8.41/0855
"I-180"
S of Zaporozhe
162 IAP? They lost Ml.Lt. Andrey Panteleevich Tsaplagin KIA this date

14.9.41/0605
I-153 "Tchaika"
Jelesawetowka/Mironovka area
44 IAD Staff. This was probably claimed against Leytenant Grigoriy Kotscha. Overclaiming, as he managed to escape (also appears to have been claimed by Gollob)

19.9.41/1357
SB-3
Kotschubjewka
Possibly 316 ORAP. Crew of Ml.Lt. Yaroslav Leonidovich Bratolyubov

Unconfirmed
2.4.42/1530
Hurricane ("Spitfire")
Malta
BV174 of 229 sqn. P/O Andrews returned to base with damage

26.8.42/0830
Yak-7B
NW of Stalingrad @ 800m
(Wilcke and Wessling claimed as well)
Were these claimed against 900 IAP? They lost Lt. Viktor Alekseyevich Saburov KIA

7.9.42/1536
La-5
SW of Achtuba (PQ 49283) @ 2500m
3 GIAP or 27 IAP, 287 IAD, 8 VA. Definitely 3 La-5s lost this date

19.9.42/1144
Yak
1km SE of Kotluban @ 500m
8 VA (1 Yak-7B lost) or 16 VA (6 Yak-1s and 1 Yak-7B lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA losses include Pavel Nikolaevich Bulaev of 520 IAP KIA and Ivan Yakovlevich Buldygin of 581 IAP

24.9.42/1103 and 1109
2 x Yak-1s
Stalingrad – Dubovka
8 VA (no known losses) or 16 VA (8 Yak-1s lost) or 102 IAD/PVO. 16 VA's losses include Mikhail Stepanovich Bubnov of 43 IAP, Serzhant Peter Korneevich Sednev of 520 IAP and Ilya Mikhaylovich Yuzhakov (AE CO) of 812 IAP. All KIA

27.9.42/1603
Stalingrad @ 4500m
8 VA (1 IL-2 lost this date) or 16 VA (no known losses this date). 8 VA's loss was 944 ShAP, Serzhant Pavel Vasilyevich Sytov
(Wilcke also claimed, so one must be an overclaim)

14.10.42/0707 and 0715
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
20-25km NW of Stalingrad
Likely 245 ShAP. Losses include Evgeny Filippovich Baranov POW (liberated in January 1943). 954 ShAP lost Kapitan Arkady Ivanovich Buzev (AE CO) KIA
There were about 5 claims in total

17.10.42/0915
Yak-1
50km NE of Stalingrad @ 2000m
512 IAP. Starshiy Leytenant Ignatiy Biryukov

25.10.42/1039 and 1421
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Krasnoarmejsk – Stalingrad
686, 807 and 945 ShAP, 206 ShAD? (definitely in action this day). Losses include MSgt Sudarkin of 945 ShAP, forcelanded 5km S of Prishchevka (already damaged by Flak, finished off by a Bf109). 944 ShAP lost St. Serzhant Nikolay Sergeevich Smirnov KIA

26.10.42/1402, 1407, 1408 and 1412
4 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Stalingrad – Beketovka
Day's IL-2 losses include 206 ShAD's Sgt. Malyshev KIA over Sarpinskiy Island. 686 ShAP, 807 ShAP, 811 ShAP and 945 ShAP all in action this date. 505 ShAP lost Serzhant Alexei Nikolaevich Sipigin KIA this date 807 ShAP lost Pavel Dmitrievich Shurigin in an alleged taran this date

27.10.42/1000
Yak-1
12km E of Krasnaja Sloboda
Day's losses in the Stalingrad sector include 11 IAP's Vitaliy Vasilievich Serkov KIA. Same unit lost Serzhant Vasily Ivanovich Titov on IL-2 escort mission and definitely to fighters was Nikolay Aleksandrovich Shershilov baled out failed to return

30.11.42/0810 and 0812
2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks
Pitomnik – Kotluban
622 ShAP, 214 ShAD, 8 VA definitely in action over Pitomnik in the morning losing 6 planes and 5 crews including Kapitan Dobrokhotov and Serzhant Pyatiletov. 5 more were seriously damaged

15.4.43/1629 and 1630
2 x LaGG-3s
Kuban bridgehead
At least 9 LaGG-3s lost this day. 4 from 267 IAP, 2 from 979 IAP, 2 from 926 IAP and 1 from 269 IAP more specific info is impossible due to large number of claims/losses

29.1.44/1107
B-17 Flying Fortress
Mannheim-Bastogne
Definitely lost to fighters around this time was 42-31486 of 612th BS, 401st BG. 2/Lt. John Tannahill Jr and 7 others KIA, remaining 2 crewmen both POW

24.2.44/1312
2 x B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
One of these was very likely B-17G-25-BO Flying Fortress 42-31666 "Poncho Thalken" of 96th BS, 2nd BG (damaged by fighter, ditched in the sea)

24.2.44/1320
P-38G-5-LO Lightning
30km SE of Steyr @ 5000m
Likely 42-12815 of 95th FS, 82nd FG. George Milton Gearhard baled out near Windischgarten after combat with fighter identified as Fw190

24.4.44/1330
B-17F-115-BO Flying Fortress
Augsburg area @ 6500m
Most likely one of several claims for 42-30730/WW- of 369th BS, 306th BG. 2/Lt. David B Ramsey and crew all POW

24.4.44/1345
P-51B-5-NA Mustang
near Muenchen @ 6500m
This one likely one of several claims for 43-7103/OS-O of 357th FS, 355th FG. 2/Lt. Howard K Hillman KIA

15.8.44/1145
B-17 Flying Fortress
Daun-Kyllberg area (PQ PO to QO) @ 6500m
First one to be attacked was 42-31183/VK-Y "Bad Penny" of 358th BS, 303rd BG. 2/Lt. Arthur L Goss and one other KIA, remaining 7 crewmen all POW
(this appears to be one of at least 6 claims for her)

15.8.44/1146
B-17G-5-BO Flying Fortress
Koblenz area (PQ PP-PO-QO) @ 6500m
Definitely down at 1146 was 42-31224/VK-F "Helen Heaven" 2/Lt. Samuel C Smithy and 4 others POW, remaining 4 crewmen all KIA

13.9.44
B-17 Flying Fortress (rammed)
Believed to be overclaiming, possibly fiction. No known loss by ramming

6.10.44/1205
B-17G-40-VE Flying Fortress
Naunen-Brandenburg (PQ FF-FG-GF) @ 8000m
551st BS, 385th BG. Was this 42-98010/Q of2/Lt. Deloy Taylor and crew all KIA except one man POW. Or possibly 43-38217/P of 2/Lt. Raymond W Tuley and 5 others KIA, 3 POW or 43-38430/N of 1/Lt. Donald J Andreas and 3 others KIA, 5 POW

26.4.45
P-51D Mustang
Near Dilligen
Was this 44-72967 of 354th FG? - Appears to be last Mustang lost in ETO, apparently attributed to Flak
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  #3  
Old 19th December 2018, 15:40
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Great to see you at work Johannes on this. I always felt Eder had one of the most suspicious tally (past August 1944).
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Old 19th December 2018, 16:22
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Nick

Thing is that unless the whole staffel is dis-honest then honest or not your probably not get away with anything dodgy, however if your with the Stab of a unit your probably only flying as a Rotte, and your likely to be high ranking......then the opportunity arises!

Therefore Dahl is unlikely to have been able to be dis-honest even if it was within him to be so while a lower rank.

The fictional Abschusseliste could have been made-up by himself or somebody else, however in his 1961 publication he states 133 victories, which would have made him top claimer during 1945......what are the chances of that?

Most of those we have proven to be dodgy are top scoring, and usually high ranking pilots, but the system does not allow them to do this alone, therefore they must bribe their witness with something, promotion, a claim of their own, booze, money, decorations(shared overclaiming would lead to this).

With Eder he earlier flew with JG51 which was generally more honest than JG2, and his rank lower, actually it seems that the Geschwader itself was influenced by whoever was Kommodore at the time when it comes to honesty i.e Wick JG2, Molders JG53/JG51 and Galland JG26. I have never really taken to Galland, yet guess I have got to respect his honesty really! So with Eder I have yet to be convinced of his dis-honesty.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 19th December 2018, 19:15
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

I have always tried to avoid such honest/dishonest arguments but with JG 2, for the BofB, Wick plus I Gruppe claimed 207, II Gruppe 61, III Gruppe 17......Common denominator?
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Old 20th December 2018, 14:33
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Chris

John Foreman has always thought that JG2 got away with so much as it was the "Richthofen" Geschwader i.e using it's name. More likely is that because of it's location many of it's claims were alleged over water, but your analysis would suggest that if all Gruppen were at full strength then III Gruppe was honest and I Gruppe dis-honest, of course each pilot is different. It's the same with many Geschwader I./JG 54, 7th and 9th Staffel(especially the 9th) JG 52, II./JG 5(especially 6th Staffel.

If under the same circumstances of combat, why should one Geschwader out perform the others by so much. I have always thought that Meimberg and Seeger seemed honest, though both flew with 3./JG 2 at some point, whereas I always thought that Johann Schmid a bit dodgy, but did he continue within JG26?

Kind Regards

Johannes
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Old 20th December 2018, 17:33
Karl Karl is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hello,

relating to Georg-Peter Eder´s "jet evidence":
Eder joined Kommando Nowotny in October 1944, made his very first Me262-flight with this unit and for example witnessed the deadly crash of Olt Paul Bley with a Me262 shortly after taking off from Achmer on 28.10.44.

After disbandment of the Kommando (due to the dead of Major Nowotny on 8. November 1944) and establishment of JG7, Eder became Staffelkapitän of 9./JG7 until 22.February (not January) 1945. On this day during an attack on a bomber formation, the left Jumo004 engine was hit by counter-fire and he had to bail out from his burning Me262 (WNr. 110 778). Due to contact with his plane´s fuselage or tail he suffered injuries to his head and left leg, which were severe enough that he was hospitalized until the end of war.

According to the Manfred Boehme´s book "Jagdgeschwader 7, die Chronik eines Me 262 Geschwaders 1944/45" there is a RLM document confirming that Eder achieved 11 victories between 01.10.1944 and 01.01.1945 with a total of then 64 victories (see page 84 in the book).

All of Eder´s personal photos and late war notes were "liberated" by his interrogator after war.

Regards, Karl
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Old 20th December 2018, 18:08
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

The attached ULTRA suggests that Eder was detached from his unit at the end of November.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CX_MSS_R384(A).jpg (114.9 KB, 54 views)
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Old 20th December 2018, 18:38
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Chris

John Foreman has always thought that JG2 got away with so much as it was the "Richthofen" Geschwader i.e using it's name. More likely is that because of it's location many of it's claims were alleged over water, but your analysis would suggest that if all Gruppen were at full strength then III Gruppe was honest and I Gruppe dis-honest, of course each pilot is different. It's the same with many Geschwader I./JG 54, 7th and 9th Staffel(especially the 9th) JG 52, II./JG 5(especially 6th Staffel.

If under the same circumstances of combat, why should one Geschwader out perform the others by so much. I have always thought that Meimberg and Seeger seemed honest, though both flew with 3./JG 2 at some point, whereas I always thought that Johann Schmid a bit dodgy, but did he continue within JG26?

Kind Regards

Johannes
Johannes
Do you have combat reports allowing to recreate events leading to particular vicotries? I am afraid not. Therefore having only partial evidence I find your comments about honesty or dishonesty a bit abusive. I find a number of eg. JG 26 confirmed victories being not supported by Allied data because the Allied aircraft were lost to another reason. An in depth research would require a detailed analysis of all combats, claims and losses, and this is virtually impossible. We also do not know, how many claims of eg. JG 26 were rejected on the initial stage, and only that would give us a fair comparison.
On the other hand it looks JG 2 fared much better in Normandy rather than JG 26.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:24
Johannes Johannes is offline
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Franek

I am not trying to discredit the Luftwaffe, they were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims, sometimes this evidence is the abschussemeldung which give about as much evidence as there is about an individual claim. Matching Allied loses to Luftwaffe claims shows there was overclaiming, usually the same individuals time and again. "Viermot" claims are to be treated differently, you didn't need to actually shoot the bomber down to make a claim, this would be a quirk of the points system.

My objective for asking about Eder is to establish the possibility about the "Twelve" jet claims always associated with him. It has been pointed out that the fifty days to acquire his jet kills has been with Karl's help(many thanks for that) been extended to eighty days.....a far more realistic time allowance. I asked about his honesty because I am no expert on that, but after the Walther Dahl saga I am a bit realistic to the possibility that what has been "fact" for seventy years might not actually be so. Fact is there is no flugbucher/abschussemeldung or abschusselist that shows evidence of Eder's claims, but that doesn't mean he didn't make them. With Erich Rudorffer we have the same twelve total of jet claims, only two were generally written about, yet after viewing his flugbuch (one of these wasn't correct) twelve proved to be the correct number, though they were later than expected.

My co-author John Foreman always said that if JG26 claimed they would match Allied loses very well, if JG 2 claimed not very well, if both claimed again not very well, but he would accept that it was JG2 not JG26 overclaiming.

Regarding been lost in another way, actually I am in agreement, in films made during the war British bombers were always reported as lost to flak, whereas the vast majority fell to fighters. Even a pilot being shot down may have been surprised and thought flak, yet could have been caught by a fighter.

Kind Regards

Johannes
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