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Old 9th April 2011, 03:18
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Cool Korea June 1953- 77 MiG x 1 F-86

That was the published official score by the USAF for the month of June of 1953, 77 MiG-15 destroyed with only a F-86 loss. Other sources, with more prudence mention the number "14" of F-86 losses and a total of 23 all causes. That's match the Korwald numbers.

The curious thing, for the V-VS , June was also the most frutiful month for the 64th IAK in terms of aerial victories. We see in details the claims and losses:

V-VS

The 64th IAK claimed for this month:

36 F-86
4 F-84
1 F-80

Losses were high with 24 MiGs lost and 10 pilot KIA. 15 other MiGs were damaged. Of this total , 5 MiGs and 3 pilots KIA were shot down while taking off or landing

PLAAF

PLAAF claims were for 25 destroyed and 5 damaged in June and July 1953.
PLAAF losses were 11 MiGs and 7 pilots KIA.
The worst day for the PLAAF was the June 30th but is not clear how many of the claimed 16 MiGs were really PLAAF or was also KPAFAC this day in mission.

KPAFAC

No informations available of the number of sorties, missions or ev. MiG losses this month.

Total of MiGs destroyed :35. We have there a difference of 42 MiGs; 42 KPAFAC MiGs destroyed in June 1953? Ummmm...

USAF and UN

The losses(All causes) of the USAF, US Navy, USMC and the RAAF 77th Sqd were:

23 F-86E/F(1x4th FIW, 5x51th FIW,7x 8th FBG,9x 18th FBG, 1x 67th TRW)and one 51th FIW damaged.
6 F-84(1x 474th FBG, 4x 58th FBG, 1x 49th FBG)(Five G and one old E)
1 F-94(319th FIS)
3 F9F Panthers(VF-153, VF-91 and VF-111)
1 F3D-2 Skynight(VMF(N)-513, MAG-12)
2 F4U Corsair(VF-94 and VC-3 Det M)
1 AD-2 Skyraider(VMA-121)
4 Meteors(77th Sqd RAAF)
2 F-51D Mustang(ROKAF)

No losses of F-80s, B-26 or B-29s were reported this month.

17 F-86 Sabre fighter bombers were shot down this month, but also 5 F-86 of the 51th FIW and 1 of the 4th FIW.

Four of this F-86 had high possibilities of be victims of MiGs:

51-2838 (51th FIG, 25th FIS)Separated from flight in bad weather, no radio contact, pilot Fl Lt John E.Y.King(RAF)MIA, Jun 4, 1953.(F-86E-10)(PLAAF)
51-2762 (51th FIG, 16th FIS)Operational, engine exploded, bailed out over mouth of Yalu River, pilot FlLt James A.Ryan rescued, Jun 5, 1953.(F-86E-10)
52-4339 (18th FBG, 12th FBS)Downed by AAA, pilot Capt Robert A.Coury POW, Jun 10, 1953.(F-86F-30)
51-2832 (51th FIG, 25th FIS)Hit by gnd fire while leading 4 F-86s, bailed out successfully approx 6 mi SE of Cholsan, pilot LtCol John C. Giraudo POW, Jun 16, 1953.(F-86E-10)

This one was lucky and only was damaged:

51-2905 (51st FIG, 39th FIS) damaged by MiGs Jun 7, 1953. Later transferred to Taiwan.(F-86F-1)

The 51-2838 was(possible)shot down by one MiG of the PLAAF; the other three by Grigorii N. Berelizde(224 IAP, 32 IAD), Semen A. Fedorets(913 IAP, 32 IAD) and the last, 51-2832 by Aleksandr K. Popov(913 IAP, 32 IAD).
The F-84s, difficult to say, officialy 4 were shot down by AAA , but also we have there a "Flame out" and other a " Faded from ground scope during night armed reconnaissance mission".

Also many times F-80s were taked as F-84s or viceversa(also the same ID problem for the Panthers).

The "77 versus 1" is still a open polemic theme, sometimes critized, a lot discuted in the last 20 years, and, in my opinion, personally, really very few credible.

Regards
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Old 11th April 2011, 03:18
JoeB JoeB is offline
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Re: Korea June 1953- 77 MiG x 1 F-86

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Nole View Post
36 F-86
4 F-84
1 F-80

1. Total of MiGs destroyed :35. We have there a difference of 42 MiGs; 42 KPAFAC MiGs destroyed in June 1953? Ummmm...

USAF and UN

2. 3 F9F Panthers(VF-153, VF-91 and VF-111)

Four of this F-86 had high possibilities of be victims of MiGs:

3. 51-2838 (51th FIG, 25th FIS)Separated from flight in bad weather, no radio contact, pilot Fl Lt John E.Y.King(RAF)MIA, Jun 4, 1953.(F-86E-10)(PLAAF)
4. 51-2762 (51th FIG, 16th FIS)Operational, engine exploded, bailed out over mouth of Yalu River, pilot FlLt James A.Ryan rescued, Jun 5, 1953.(F-86E-10)
5. 52-4339 (18th FBG, 12th FBS)Downed by AAA, pilot Capt Robert A.Coury POW, Jun 10, 1953.(F-86F-30)
6. 51-2832 (51th FIG, 25th FIS)Hit by gnd fire while leading 4 F-86s, bailed out successfully approx 6 mi SE of Cholsan, pilot LtCol John C. Giraudo POW, Jun 16, 1953.(F-86E-10)


7. The F-84s, difficult to say, officialy 4 were shot down by AAA , but also we have there a "Flame out" and other a " Faded from ground scope during night armed reconnaissance mission".
1. Besides KPAAF losses, there's no source I know of which 'ties in' month by month losses of the PLAAF to their total figure. It's well known that PLAAF individual accounts have appeared quoting losses in particular actions, sub-periods or units, then later accounts have quoted higher losses. So I wouldn't take PLAAF losses as a complete known as of now. OTOH I'd assume the Soviet ones reported in say Seidov's book are probably close to what the records say (not necessarily the same, for the early part of the war they aren't quite the same, he seems to omit a few, for this period I haven't obtained complete Soviet records in order to say). The overall claim accuracy rate of F-86's was apparently around 75% (just counting actual enemy losses against 'destroyed' credits, giving no weight to 'probable' or 'damaged'). That would imply around 58 actual MiG losses, but the accuracy might have been lower in that particular period. If the real loss was in the 40's, that's still hardly shocking overclaim by WWII standards. In fact some accounts imply that the 5th AF standard for awarding victories from gun camera images was loosened near the end of the war, but I'd say we still don't have the data for this period to make a firm determination about F-86 claim accuracy.

2. I started my detailed Korean War air combat research reviewing every historical report of every USN and USMC F9F squadron v detailed MiG claims, because I was so interested in the thesis that many F-84 and F-80 credits to MiG's actually represented F9F's, which Seidov for example puts forth. But it was quite rare. F9F's encountered MiG's just 11 times in the war. No other cases even suggest the possiblity F9F's came under MiG attack without realizing it. The times and places don't match MiG claims. There were no encounters between MiG's and F9F's in June 1953. The last were on March 26 of that year when PLAAF MiG's encountered both VMF-115 and -311 with no actual victories. The only Soviet victory credits for F-80/F-84's where the targets were actually F9F's, all of which were overclaims, occurred in November 1950 (several encounters), Oct 25 1951; April 30 and August 20 1952. The only F9F actually downed by a MiG was among 7 credits for F-94's Jul 21 1951 (no F-94's or other US a/c were present). An F9F v. MiG encounter reported by VMF-311 Sept 25 1951 doesn't correspond to any MiG claim AFAIK, and the USSR based MiG's which encountered F9F's Nov 18 1952 apparently knew they were engaging USN a/c.

3. "Daily Korean Resume" No. 109 says for June 4 "No enemy jets were sighted airborne or engaged F-86's during the period, as the weather continued poor". The loss was reported as weather related. What is your source for a PLAAF claim for that particular day? AFAIK there weren't any.

4. This loss is documented in records in several places as 'not due to enemy action', but in a first hand account a crewman on the SA-16 (Abatross amphibian) which rescued Ryan recalled the British pilot saying he was a downed by a MiG. I haven't obtained the same highly detailed daily USAF encounter reports for '53 as earlier years which might make this clearer. I rate it 'possibly MiG'.

5. This was pretty clearly a AAA loss IMO. It's in the records as AAA loss in grid square 'CT' well south of the Pyongyang-Wonsan line in which MiG activity was rare, especially later in the war. Coury described it in detail both in "Prisoners of a Forgotten War Remembered" written many years later, as well as in his then-classified POW debriefing interview in 1953.

6. Similar to 5, CT grid box AAA loss per the reports of the day, and Giraudo's POW debrief was quite specific about the circumstances. Also the time on this one is known, 0927 I, and the MiG v F-86 combats of that day were in the afternoon.

Another case which is more plausibly a possible MiG loss than either no's 3, 5 or 6 above IMO is 52-2855 which was reported as an engine failure loss in the MiG Alley area of NK on a day with MiG claims, June 19. However I wouldn't conclude so without further evidence, again I need more detailed encounter reports for 1953.

7. The disappearance of F-84G 51-10385, ('faded from scope') Jun 10, appears to correspond to a night fighter claim of the 298th IAP. BTW the 298th also claimed a B-29 and a B-26 that month.

In November 1950, a month I've researched in a lot of detail on both sides (I've studied the late period of the war in less detail, so far) the Soviets awarded credits for 29 US a/c and actually downed 1 outright (a B-29) and caused another to crashland, destroyed (an RB-29). Their general overclaim rate was not that high, but crediting 41 a/c in June '53 and only actually downing 2 (F-86 and F-84) is not unbelievable IMO. It doesn't mean the two questionable F-86 losses *must* have been MiG losses, and no other losses plausibly were, IMO, based on the evidence I know.

Joe
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Old 11th April 2011, 17:16
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: Korea June 1953- 77 MiG x 1 F-86

Thanks Joe for the answer, as always very interesant to read all your post and comentaries.

About the possible victory of the June 4th, 1953. The info about the loss of the 51-2838 come from Korwald:

FU-838
Date of Loss: 530604
Tail Number: 51-2838
Aircraft Type: F-86E
Wing or Group: 51st Ftr-Int Gp
Squadron: 25th Ftr-Int Sq
Circumstances of Loss: Separated from flight in bad weather, no radio contact
Crewmembers Associated With This Loss
Name
(Last, First Middle) Rank Service Status Comments
KING, John E. Y. FLTLT RAF MIA

Here the date is different(Joe Bauguer page):

51-2838 (51st FIG, 25th FIS) MIA Jun 6, 1953

And Acid Org. say:

4-Jun-1953 PLAAF MiG-15 23/37mm F-86E John E. King 25 FIS, USAF.

Already is the only F-86 credited to the PLAAF for June in this site.René Francillon (After Russian sources)also credited one F-86 for the PLAAF in this month. Known dates for soviets claims for June were the 5th June(Berelidze one F-86), 7th June(two F-86 hits, defending in the Suiho attack, 51-2905 and 52-4384 ?) and 10th June(Fedorets, this one can be confirmed. This pilot landing with a piece of the left wing slat of the F-86).
Your note about the commentary of the SA-16 rescued crew , about the loss of 51-2762 of FlLt James A.Ryan,confirme as near sure the victory of Berelidze.
The mistery rest for the F-86 shot down by Fedorets the 10th June. As say before, Fedorets land his MiG taking with him at his MiG fuselage a piece of left wing slat of the F-86. If not was Coury's 52-4339, wich F-86 was this one, shot down by Fedorets?

Always in theme, June 1953. There also reports and photos of the F-86F-30 52-4425(8th FBW, 35th FBS)as damaged by MiG in this month(I dont know exactly tha date.Other sources speak of AAA).In the photo the plane had a hugue impact of 37mm or 23mm in the tail.


About F9F Panthers, I have some informations of a possible second F9F shot down by MiG:

The F9F-3 123030(US Boxer VF-24)In escort mission for a recce F2H-2P over Suiho, crashed and exploded on impact S of Wonsan on Green 3, pilot Lt Jack Griffth KIA, Jul 4, 1952.

After some sources, this plane was shot down by Kapitan Nikolay Petrovich Chistyakov of the 494th IAP.

A third, as you mentioned in the combate between MiGs of the V-VS and the Panthers of the VF-781, was damaged, but his pilot, Lt Royce Williams made a safe landing in the carrier.

Always in theme Jul 4, 1952 over Suiho, a F-80 was claimed also as shot down by the Capitán Piotr V. Minervin of the 148th GIAP.

Minervin had hit the F-80(actually, more possible was really a F-84)from 200-250m and had see the USAF plane diving out of control and impacting ground.

I have searched info about this possible loss but to this day I have nothing founded about them.

Regards

Daniel

PD: I have created a new post for November 1950 to discuss the theme.

Last edited by Daniel Nole; 11th April 2011 at 20:00.
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Old 12th April 2011, 04:30
JoeB JoeB is offline
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Re: Korea June 1953- 77 MiG x 1 F-86

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Nole View Post
1. About the possible victory of the June 4th, 1953. The info about the loss of the 51-2838 come from Korwald:

Here the date is different(Joe Bauguer page):

51-2838 (51st FIG, 25th FIS) MIA Jun 6, 1953

And Acid Org. say:

4-Jun-1953 PLAAF MiG-15 23/37mm F-86E John E. King 25 FIS, USAF.

2. Your note about the commentary of the SA-16 rescued crew , about the loss of 51-2762 of FlLt James A.Ryan,confirme as near sure the victory of Berelidze.

3. The mistery rest for the F-86 shot down by Fedorets the 10th June. As say before, Fedorets land his MiG taking with him at his MiG fuselage a piece of left wing slat of the F-86. If not was Coury's 52-4339, wich F-86 was this one, shot down by Fedorets?

4. Always in theme, June 1953. There also reports and photos of the F-86F-30 52-4425(8th FBW, 35th FBS)as damaged by MiG in this month(I dont know exactly tha date.Other sources speak of AAA).In the photo the plane had a hugue impact of 37mm or 23mm in the tail.


5. About F9F Panthers, I have some informations of a possible second F9F shot down by MiG:

The F9F-3 123030(US Boxer VF-24)In escort mission for a recce F2H-2P over Suiho, crashed and exploded on impact S of Wonsan on Green 3, pilot Lt Jack Griffth KIA, Jul 4, 1952.
1. June 4 is the correct date, mentioned in both the 5th AF Loss A/c Report for the month and the "Daily Resume" summary of the day, no contact at all with MiG's due to bad weather which also contributed to the loss, per the reports. Again, I know of no Chinese source or account claiming any victories that day. ACIG is not a reliable source when it comes to Korean War claim/loss matching at least, unfortunately.

2. I would like to see the detailed contact reports (I haven't found these yet for 1953, they may not still exist) which would give a better idea if Ryan's flight was actually in contact with MiG's. If so it would be reasonable to give benefit of doubt to a MiG claim (though it's very unlikely it would be possible to credit it to one particular pilot among 4 claims by the Soviets and probably others we don't know by the Chinese and NK's). But OTOH it's possible it occurred without actual contact w/ MiG's and the SA-16 crewman misunderstood or recalled incorrectly, since several other then-secret primary sources (the plane's Record Card, Daily Resume, Monthly Loss Report) flag it 'Not Enemy Action'. I'd stick with 'possible' for now, personally.

3. 51-2729 suffered major damage in air combat June 10 (repaired), however that occurred in a combat at around 1515I. Fedorets and AK Popov each claimed an F-86 in a combat around 1545I, which is a closer match to a combat recorded on US side by other F-86's in 1520-1545 period. One of those F-86's, interestingly, was (slightly, thus tail no. was not recorded) damaged by flying debris from a MiG, but Fedorets' unit didn't record any losses. Debris from a non-Soviet MiG might be the explanation in both cases. These combats occurred according to both sides in far northern NK or even on the Chinese side (according to Soviet accounts) far from where Coury's a/c was downed in southern NK. No other F-86 was lost that day, not much doubt about that.

4. 52-4425 suffered major damage to AA fire May 29, 1953.

5. The claim and loss clearly don't match. The F-84 claimed was said in Soviet records to have crashed at 'Deheguangdong' (ie. Daegweon) around 30km south of the Suiho reservoir along the Yalu and about 60km from Antung, although 'the fate of the pilot was unknown' (as was often recorded, even crashes which ostensibly had occurred in NK held territory). The VF-24 loss OTOH occurred south of Wonsan around 300km from Antung. USN a/c operated on the east coast after November 1950 with few exceptions, and Antung area-based Soviet MiG's never operated on the east coast with only one exception, mission of Nov 27 1951 to the Wonsan area where the MiG's were almost lost to fuel exhaustion, convincing the Soviets the NK east coast was beyond practical MiG-15 range from Antung.

Joe
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Old 13th April 2011, 04:04
Daniel Nole Daniel Nole is offline
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Re: Korea June 1953- 77 MiG x 1 F-86

Thanks Joe.

By the Jun 19th 1953, the PLAAF MiGs were flying defensive patrol missions over the Yalu bridges, and this same day Han Decai, of the 15th FAD had claimed a F-86 damaged.

Five F-86 were loss this day(four 8th FBG and one 51th FIW), but I dont have finded any mention of another one damaged.

Daniel
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