8./JG 52 over Constanca 23 VI 1941?

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

During "Barbarossa" (after 22 VI 9141) the 8./JG 52 of Hptm. Günther Rall was on Mamaia airfield. This and second unit 7./JG 52 took part in many air comabats till the end of July over Black See and constanca + ect..
I am looking for the informationa about German kills on 23 VI 41 over Conastanca/Balck See. One of DB-3f was shot down, most poroably by German pilot and later force landed on the see. Maybe it was Rall's victory or maybe other pilot (?). The victors very near had fown to the victim observing its lasts moments, but he did not shot more.
Searching data about air over Constanca I am looking for the victor name over this DB-3f. -The whole crew had survived this.
Others datas of German pilots who achived vicotries in Jun 1941 over Constanca are also welcome. Gneral information are know to me too.

Reagrds
MIrek Wawrzyński

[Tom Semenza]

Mirek,

According to Prien in "Jagdfliegerverbände ... Teil 6/II," III./JG 52 made its first claims in the East on 24.07.41 with 12 DB-3s confirmed; 10 to 8./JG 52, 1 to 7./JG 52 and 1 to Stab III./JG 52, all in the Constanza area.

Tom

[Laurent Rizzotti]

The 23rd June, at dawn, 10 Soviet bombers bombed Konstanza and the airfield of Mamaia. An isolated Romanian pilot, Lt. av. Horia Agarici, claimed 3 shot down (and became the hero of of song... the story is well known). A new attack was launched in the afternoon.

According to my source ("La chasse de jour allemande en Roumanie" (German day fighters in Romania), by Mombeek and Roba), they were no claims by the Luftwaffe this day. The book says that the 24th 8 Soviet bombers were claimed by German and 4 by Rumanian fighters, 5 more wer claimed on the 25th and Rall led his Staffel to intercept bombers at sea at dawn on the 26th, after arriving the evening before, and slaugthered a bomber formation (as for victories number, the book just said 83/JG 52 claimed 45 in 2 days).

[Christer Bergström]

Due to various logbooks of III./JG 52 pilots, 7./JG 52 scrambled at Pipera at 0545 and 1315 hours on 23 June 1941, and 8./JG 52 scrambled at Mizil at 0555 and 1310 hours on 23 June 1941. However, none of the German fighter pilots seem to have made contact with the Soviet bombers. Instead, as Laurent points out, the Rumanians made a successful interception of the Soviet bombers. (Locotenent aviator Agarici of Escadrila 53 flew a Hurricane).

On 24 June 1941, III./JG 52 claimed not only eight, but 12 Soviet bombers. Actual Soviet losses were ten.

The Soviet air operations against Rumania will be closely described and examined in my book "Barbarossa: The Air War", which will be published by Ian Allan in 2007. (It is a +100,000-word large format and richly illustrated book.)

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi Thanks for the information
According Soviet sources and also other Rumanian or German on 23 VI was the big Soviet attack. Soviets did lose 8 DB-3F+ 8 SB. The next day was the second air raid with the losses too (I am out of home) so I do not remebr all data. Soviets had despached guite big force severals tens of bombers (2. MTAP + 40. BAP) = DB-3F + SB.

On 23 VI if I am right rember there were 8 German and 4 Rumanian climed victories then + AA victories too. The next day weree aslo air fightings (24 VI)
.
In fact the firs raid over Constanca was done in the night 22/23 VI by a few bombers. So the next day had come Me
109 (8/JG 52) and Hurricanes too.

Pried probably had based on one day late climes. The Soviet did lost the bigger amount of plane on 23 not on 24 VI 41.
Rall had made some seatments about these fighting days over Constanca but no deiatls

Ruamnian pilots who were a few there could not be so good as the German one who had big expirience in ari comabt.
45 victories in 2 days is quite big misunderstanding so somewhere is a fault. Reading some reprots of GenLt. Speidel about air accitvities over constanca in 1941 he gives total general data a littel bit higher up to September 1941 for German pilots so 45 is too much.

BTW you may se also Seaplanes over Belcak See (Roba+Carcionoiu)

Reagards
Mirek wawrzyDski
The author of monographs: "The Day of Armagedon - 22 VI 1941 air War over East", "The Red Blizkrieg", "VVKJ in April War" and "Ju 87 in Foreign Service" and many more



.

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

The 23rd June, (...)
According to my source ("La chasse de jour allemande en Roumanie" (German day fighters in Romania), by Mombeek and Roba), they were no claims by the Luftwaffe this day. The book says that the 24th 8 Soviet bombers were claimed by German and 4 by Rumanian fighters

There were more than 4 air victory claims files by Rumanian fighter pilots.
I don't have yet to total, because I am still processing the information I gathered at the local archives.

[Dénes Bernád]

Double post edited.

[Christer Bergström]

Rall had made some seatments about these fighting days over Constanca but no deiatls

I have a xerox copy of Rall's logbook (I don't mean the published memoirs, "Mein Flugbuch", which nevertheless is just excellent, but the actual wartime handwritten logbook), and there is nothing there which would indicate an air combat on 23 June 1941. This also due to Edmund Rossmann's (7./JG 52) logbook.

The assumption that Prien may have "based on one day late claims" finds no support in these first-hand sources.

The Soviet Black Sea Fleet Aviation despatched 49 DB-3Fs of 2 MTAP and 24 SBs of 40 SBAP, delivering 53.3 tons of bombs, on 23 June 1941. 2 MTAP and 40 SBAP reported eight aircraft losses each. It would seem as though many of the Soviet aircraft were shot down by the AAA fire, which reportedly was so effective that it caused the bombing to become scattered.

Early on 24 June 1941 eighteen SBs and eighteen DB-3s which raided Constanta were intercepted by III./JG 52 and Rumanian fighters and lost ten bombers. III./JG 52 claimed to have shot down 12, against one own loss.

Later on 24 June, fighters from III./JG 52 made an unsuccessful interception of another formation of 32 SBs and DB-3s, which attacked the airfield at Mamaia, destroying two of 8./JG 52's aircraft and causing two casualties on the ground.

Dénes, I look forward to more findings in Rumanian sources!

[Tom Semenza]

In my previous post I mistyped the date. It should of course be 24.06.41 not 24.07.41. Sorry about that.

Tom

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi

The probelm with claims over conatsnca 23-26 VI 1941 is that Soviets carried the most heavy attack in JUne. on 23 VI they lost 8 DB-3F + 8 SB
BTW in spite of 63. BAB =2 MTAP + 40. SB, there were also send 2 independend bombers eskadrilas (all next 25 SB) + 1 training regiment - 3 SURAP if I am right writing it. These units were aditional force attacking Rumanian costs (including Constanca too). I have written quite detaild history (as 2001) about this in my book Hurricane in Foreign Service in 2001 (the chapter about ARR Hurricanes).
Now after several yeras I am preparing upgarded version - Hurricane over Costanca and Odessa.
So the problems of 23 and 24 air comabts is strange. In both days Soviets admited to sustain losses (18 on 23 VI and 10 or 11 on 24, and on 25 there were not air intrusion on Constanca but on 26 VI was air and navy attack).
So when we talking about Horia Agarici - he climed 3 (2 confirmed victories) the next 2 Rumanian pilot add 1 each more victories on 23 VI. Ant this is all if we talkinga about Rumanian succes on 23 VI. The bombers attacked from the hight about 300o m so German flak or Rumanian A/A were not so accurate to shot down 10-12 bombers. In air comabts over Constanca A/A batteries claimed some victories but much more were on the accounts of fighter pilots (German - dominant, Rumanian less).
So it is means that something in the data are overlapping and were not correctly written (German, Rumanian or Soviet files?),
becauese Rumanian fighters could not (and they even did not make so many claims) had so many victories on 23 VI.
I can not agree Christer's point that it was done by A/A on 23 VI 1941. I think that rather somehwere in document were written wrong data and also do not think that Sovites would like to make such error like loosing 16 bombers on 23 VI and writing this with one day later.
There is a story written by one Soviet crew (DB-3F) which was shot down on 23 VI and from the Soviet crew side it looks like the bomber was attacked by Germans a group of fighter and not Rumanian.
So it looks as a very nice puzzle?

Regards
Mirek W