Ju 52 markings on the tail??

[KrisJG3]

Could You try ID additional Ju52 (photo made: 10 March 1945)?

http://starakarta.karta.org.pl/foto/...evs/prev27.jpg

Vertical rudder - tail code: I5L (or ISL) ?
and side code: + L

Is it TG1 Staffel 5 from Tutow ?????

[cheruskerarmin]

Hi all,

just discovered this older thread but anyway thought it could need a bit of update:

post #1 to #9:

The tactical tail markings were introduced in late 1941 to allow easy identification of units and aircraft in the field. Many transport aircraft were switching units, new or replacement aircraft arrived constantly. Units were disbanded and reformed etc.
Instead of time consuming repainting of codes and unit markings a simple three digit code was painted in yellow (exception = white) on the vertical tailrudder of the planes:

- The first digit was usually a large letter. This was assigned to the unit(group or squadron) and oftenly related to the unit commander's second name. Examples are given by ju55dk in post #6.
Some more were E for Erdmann (KGrzbV102), Z (III./KGzbV1/KGrzbV600) for Zeidler, H for Hornung (KGrzbV106)and Heyer (KGrzbV400), S for Schlosser (KGrzbV300), S1 for Schneidenberger (Transportstaffel II./Fliegerkorps) and L for von Linsingen (TGrHe111).
Sometimes the letters were related to the locations were the units were formed i. e. W for KGrzbVWittstock or N for KGrzbV S7, formed in Naples.
In some cases no concrete relevance of the letters is known i. e. A for I./KGzbV1, D for IV./KGzbV1, N for I./KGzbV172, T for KGrzbV800, S for LTS See, W1 for Seetransportstaffel 1 and X, Y for KGrzbV323.
Finally – as always – there were exceptions were large arabic or roman numbers were used instead of the letters i. e. II./KGzbV1 (no unit letter just large ‘real’ squadron number) and TG4 (roman numbers).
The letter H was used by both units (see above) at the same time (march 1943), the letter P switched units two times (KGrzbV400/KGrzbV25/III./KGzbV1), N and Z switched units one time (see above). Reasons for switching were usually disbandment or reforming of units.

- The second digit was a squadronrelated number or letter. Usually the letter S stood for stab aircraft, numbers 1 to 4 for the four operational staffeln within the group.
An exception was i.e. II./TG4 which used the ‘real’ staffelnumbers 5 to 8 and II./KGzbV1 – see above.

- The third digit was simply the individual aircraft letter, exceptionally i. e. II./KGzbV1 used the number (digit) of the letter within the alphabet (A = 1).

Most units received it’s tailcodes when they started service in the MTO.

With the reorganisation of transport units on 1st of may 1943 the tactical (MTO) tailcodes began slowly losing their importance but nevertheless were in use by some units until the end of the war.

So if you see a pic of transport aircraft displaying fuselage codes and tailcodes always check the latter first to identify the unit.
Of course there are exceptions too, i. e. aircraft with replacement rudders…

Post #11:
T1J (‘El Haouaria’) was the J aircraft (8T+JH) of 1./KGrzbV800 (5./TG2 on 1st of may 1943) but still displayed the 4V+AT codes and the white ‘lucky pig in an eighth edged star’ emblem of 1./KGzbV172 (13./TG3 from 1st of may 1943), the squadron it served with previously. A typical example for identification via the tailcodes, not the rest of the markings. Some sources say the T1J rudder was a replacement one and therefore the unit was 1./KGzbV172 (lesser likely in my opinion, tailcodes were renewed fast).

Post #10 to #30:
(White) disc markings on transport aircraft had various meanings.
Some units simply used such for unit identification i. e. III./KGzbV1 (earliest april 1943, with small a/c and staffelletter,) KGrzbV50, KGrzbV900 (served at Demyansk) and II./TG3.
Others are known to have used such as tactical markings i. e. for Stab aircraft ( i. e. KGrzbV S7, KGrzbV323) or glider towing aircraft (i. e. LLG1, I.and II./KGzbV1, the latter served at Demyansk).

GrahamB mentioned (post #28) P4C, which served with 4./KGrzbV400 when the pic was taken.
The Ju52/3mg4e (Wnr. 6129) was coded H4+LU (10./LLG1) and was drawn to form KGrzbV400 in late 1941. The white dot was a glider towing marking.

The pic of NDot(A?) is displayed in Transporter Vol. 1 on page 93 too. Provided the given date (november 1942) is correct it couldn’t have been I./KGzbV172. The unit served at Stalingrad at this time and (contrary to the pic comment) except spring 1941 (april-june, balkan-crete campaign) never saw service in the MTO prior to 27th of april 1943 when it was assigned tactical tailcode N (not used by another unit at this time). The letter N therefore stood for KGrzbV S7 (formed at Naples) in late 1942 and the white dot most likely was a stab marking.

Post #31:
ISL was still coded 8A+LJ and originally served with Seetransportstaffel 1 in the Aegean sea.
This unit used the roman number I and the small letter S (not stab, probably for 'See') with the individual aircraft letter as tactical tailcode (from about august? 1943 onwards).
The pic was taken at Kolberg in march 1945 when the bird was remounted on wheels and served with 3./TG1.

Hope this info is useful even when I am late.

ATB
Armin

[cobrahistorian]

Originally Posted by cheruskerarmin

Hi all,

Finally – as always – there were exceptions were large arabic or roman numbers were used instead of the letters i. e. II./KGzbV1 (no unit letter just large ‘real’ squadron number) and TG4 (roman numbers).
The letter H was used by both units (see above) at the same time (march 1943), the letter P switched units two times (KGrzbV400/KGrzbV25/III./KGzbV1), N and Z switched units one time (see above). Reasons for switching were usually disbandment or reforming of units.

- The second digit was a squadronrelated number or letter. Usually the letter S stood for stab aircraft, numbers 1 to 4 for the four operational staffeln within the group.
An exception was i.e. II./TG4 which used the ‘real’ staffelnumbers 5 to 8 and II./KGzbV1 – see above.

- The third digit was simply the individual aircraft letter, exceptionally i. e. II./KGzbV1 used the number (digit) of the letter within the alphabet (A = 1).


ATB
Armin

So, using this as a guide, tail markings "H2K" would be 2./TG4, 11th aircraft?

I just got a 1943 dated boneyard photo that has this airplane, a Ju88 and an Fw190A-4 Jabo from SKG10 and a few other aircraft wrecks visible. Just trying to nail down location, although I think it's probably Gabes West.

Thanks!

Jon

[cheruskerarmin]

Hi Jon,


tactical (MTO) tailcode H2K belonged to 2./KGrzbV106.
The matching unitcode would have been 4V+KP, the aircraft letter K in red staffelcolour.

A pic of this aircraft is known to me, location Sidi Ahmed/Tunisia.



Regards
Armin