II. and III./JG54 nighttime victories Eastern Front summer 1942

[Teresa Maria]

Originally Posted by Theo Boiten

No, 'your Friedrich' did not achieve any nighttime Abschüsse on the Eastern Front.

Thank you very much for your answer. I say 'my Friedrich' because I'm in love with him.

[Monaco]

Hello Theo,
as I wrote you I assume the claim by Oblt. Dr. Werner Feise of Stab III./JG54 on 24-25.6.42 for a MBR-2 in the Novgorod-Lake Ilmen area (00.44) could have been an Aeroflot GVF PS-84 (CCCP-L3948) on a flight from Stockholm to Kalinin. I think these dangerous night flights were stopped probably in summer 1943 when the german night fighter force was increasing and probably reassumed after Finnland changed sides, but here we need the help of some russian experts.

About our other early ace in the east Ogefr. Engelbert Heiner of 9./KG.27 I have one more option for his first victorious night, when his crew claimed 3 victories in the Voronezh area including a four-engined. As I wrote I assume that he is responsible for the loss of 2 SB bombers of 331 OIAE of 642 NLBAP near Semiluki (W of Voronesh) during the night 10.-11.07.42. On 10.07.42 TB-3-equipped 7 AP ADD lost probably 1 TB-3 (pilot Kap. M.P. Alekseev and flight engineer St. Serzh. A.I. Gerasimov were KIA, buried in the Novo Usman area, E Voronesh). If the losses were during the same night this could well have been his first successful trio.
Also here any help for verification of this theory is welcome.

Cheers

Michael

[kirche]

Originally Posted by Monaco

Hello Theo,
as I wrote you I assume the claim by Oblt. Dr. Werner Feise of Stab III./JG54 on 24-25.6.42 for a MBR-2 in the Novgorod-Lake Ilmen area (00.44) could have been an Aeroflot GVF PS-84 (CCCP-L3948) on a flight from Stockholm to Kalinin. I think these dangerous night flights were stopped probably in summer 1943 when the german night fighter force was increasing and probably reassumed after Finnland changed sides, but here we need the help of some russian experts.

Hello,
to equate a claim on an MBR-2 (single-engine flying boat) with the loss of a PS-84 aircraft (licensed DC-3) you need to have powerful arguments.
Best regards,
Kirill

[Monaco]

Hello Kirche,
you´re right it sounds a little bit strange and it´s based on a assumptions. So here are some of my thoughts. When I first looked up Feise´s victory T. Woods list it was mentioned as a WER-2 (of an Oblt. Werner ---eise from Stab III./JG.54). So I was thinking maybe he identified it as a twin-engined Yer-2. In Prien it is recorded as a MBR-2. Both with loco unknown, but normally the area of the "Helle Nachtjagd" was N of Lake Ilmen along the Volkhov.
The flight route PS-84 L3948 from Stockholm-Bromma south of Lake Ilmen to Kalinin (Tver) and it crashed SE of the Lake one km east of Ivantsevo (Ivantsevo, Molvotitsy District of the Leningrad Region).

"The crew left Stockholm-Bromma at 2215LT on a cargo flight to Kalinin-Migalovo Airport (now Tver), carrying various goods for the Commissariat of the Foreign Trade. At 0032LT, the crew informed ground about his position in the region of Riga and then continued to the east and reduced his altitude to the minimum to avoid enemy aircraft. While cruising at low height, the aircraft was hit by gunfire and the left engine caught fire. The captain elected to make an emergency landing, made a turn to the right when the aircraft hit tree tops and crashed in flames in a wooded area located one km east of Ivantsevo (Ivantsevo, Molvotitsy District of the Leningrad Region). Time 0230 (LT). The aircraft was destroyed by impact forces and a post crash fire and all four crew members were killed.
Probable cause:
It was determined that gunfire hit the left engine that caught fire in flight, necessitating an emergency landing. Soviet Authorities reported that the decision of the captain (pilot Rybin) to fly at low height was a good decision to avoid any enemy aircraft. Unfortunately, investigations were unable to determine the origin of the gunfire, German or Soviet."



As far as I know Berlin time was two hours ahead of UTC. Does LT means London Time?



Anyway regarding the location of the crash and the "hunting grounds" I would now exclude L-3948 as being the victim of Feise.
However I haven´t found personnel losses in the AE of 15 OMRAP KBF, but maybe there materiel losses io the operation records...


Additions welcome!

[TigerTimon]

LT is (at least at aviation-safety.net) considered as 'local time'

[Kapper]

Michael,

The claims files are mostly hand written and difficult to read - a YER-2 could easily look like a MBR-2 and vice-versa.

You may want to give a PM to Johannes for a second look at this or even better get a copy of the page from him and see for yourself.

Regards

Craig...

[kirche]

Hello Michael,
The last connection with the plane was at 02.02 (Moscow time), and the disaster allegedly occurred at 02.30. According to Berlin time, the disaster occurred in the period after 01.02 and at about 01.30. The commission found holes in the hood of the left engine (bottom), traces of an attempt to extinguish the engine. Also on the right side of the tail stabilizer are several more holes (all from the bottom). Presumably, the shelling was on the front line (at least 10 minutes before the disaster). At least 9 holes were found, but not a single bullet - therefore, those who fired (the Germans or their own) could not establish (or did not write about it).
http://www.airdisaster.ru/database.php?id=2391

http://wap.imf.forum24.ru/?1-28-0-00000031-000-0-0
Best regards,
Kirill

[Monaco]

Thank you all for your input. LT I agree makes no sense for London Time - it would be GMT. Kirche just one question about the time? Somewhere I read that the Germans used Day Saving Time until 11.42 and the difference between BT and MT was 2 hours (??). I also see the similarity between YER-2 and MBR-2 in the first two letters...so quite possible!
Cheers
Michael

[kirche]

Originally Posted by Monaco

Kirche just one question about the time? Somewhere I read that the Germans used Day Saving Time until 11.42 and the difference between BT and MT was 2 hours (??)

Michael,
On June 1942
Berlin time = CEST (Central European Summer Time) = UT+2h = Moscow time -1h

[Monaco]

Ok, thanks Kirche, that is clearing things up. Any idea about the MBR-2 loss. Was it a transport, rescue or clandestine mission to Lake Ilmen?