I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?

[RodM]

Hello Everyone,

an archivist at the Imperial War Museum can offer a DVD of PDF'ed scans from the 12 reels of loss lists (from 11928 FER/MISC/MCR 18, held at the IWM) for GBP40.

I recently purchased a copy of this disk (and, at the same time, had a chance to view the original microfilm), and I believe that this is the one referred to by Tony.

'some comments about the contents of this disk -

(a) the quality/resolution of the scans is too low for anyone wanting to seriously extract data from the returns. Many entries are too difficult to read. This is a fault due to the limitations of the scanning process, not the quality of the original microfilm.
(b) the IWM version of the returns is incomplete for 1945.


Although it is great to have the disk, I, for one, will look to purchase microfiche copies of the returns from the BA/MA...

Cheers

Rod

[Peter Achs]

Originally Posted by Tony Jones

The microfilms at IWM are the master copy and much clearer that the copy they gave to Bundesarchiv, so scans of IWM films pages are nearly 100% readable
Tony

Hi Tony
The Bundesarchiv holds the original paper folios of the GQM (very large size) and made the microfiche scans from the originals.

Regards Peter

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by RodM

(b) the IWM version of the returns is incomplete for 1945.

If you mean that there are a couple of pages missing, I think you're right. I have a microfilm copy of the 1945 reel (from before dvd was invented) but someone who had been to BA-MA sent me photocopies of two pages the IWM must have missed.

If you mean that there are no daily reports for January, a lot of March and all of April and May, then I don't think anyone has those. The reporting system in the West seems to have faltered once the Allies got across the Rhein. The separate Luftflotte 6 material (in the USA?) does have good loss data for most of 1945 but just for that Luftflotte.

[Jim P.]

Tony, I apologize if you felt my original comment was directed at you personally - it wasn't. However, as several people above have stated, some individual did sell on e-bay an ancient copy of George's and my database without our knowledge or consent. From my recollection he managed to sell at least 20 copies, and apparently you were one of the buyers. That version compared to now, should be considered 'rubbish'. This person was ripping off not only me, but the purchasers as well, because that version of our db was very far from complete and very poorly formatted. I have no idea if this person is still trying to sell this thing. My only intent was as a 'buyer beware' to Bogdan.

[Franek Grabowski]

At last some mature comment! Jim, have you received my email or PM?

[RodM]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

If you mean that there are a couple of pages missing, I think you're right. I have a microfilm copy of the 1945 reel (from before dvd was invented) but someone who had been to BA-MA sent me photocopies of two pages the IWM must have missed.

If you mean that there are no daily reports for January, a lot of March and all of April and May, then I don't think anyone has those. The reporting system in the West seems to have faltered once the Allies got across the Rhein. The separate Luftflotte 6 material (in the USA?) does have good loss data for most of 1945 but just for that Luftflotte.

Hi Nick,

my impression is that fragments of loss lists from more than one source survived (which is confirmed from the ADI Captured docs lists). I have compared copies from the IWM microfilm with copies (for the same dates) from a NARA microfilm (T-321 Roll 210 OKL-402), and the reports are different copies.

As to 1945, the IWM mf is missing surviving reports (at the BA/MA) for 28 & 30 Jan, 1-9 February, and the report for 13 February.

Cheers

Rod

PS - 'was recently at TNA and managed to fully photograph all of the HW 5 report sections between late Dec '44-May '45

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

I'm outta here if the censorship is such that a word in everyday use has been changed, and which conveys my feeling about how badly Jim P has been treated by someone who called all his original work rubbish. You should be getting after Tony Jones, not me.

As things are settling around the original argument (the part between Jim and Tony), I'd like to address this issue.

I don't like censorship, nor changing the wording of people.

OTOH, it is good to be reminded that TOCH has a diverse community and not everyone enjoys reading this sort of language.

In this particular censorship case I thought the change was "funny" enough, and laced with some irony, perhaps a faulty approach and my lack of a good sense of humor...

But the bottom line is that I can't stop people from disagreeing with my actions. Unfortunately, my pride is such that I won't kiss a**e to keep people on TOCH!



So John, if you feel that the "atmosphere of censorship" is so pressing that you can't stay, I'd be sorry to see you go, but I wouldn't be stopping you nor anyone else for that matter.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by RodM

PS - 'was recently at TNA and managed to fully photograph all of the HW 5 report sections between late Dec '44-May '45

Been there, done that! Well sort of ... I have photographed material from all the files of that period, applying my rigorous scholarly criteria (i.e. "ooh, that looks interesting!"). Of course, I now have no idea what I've got and nor do I have enough time to sort it all out. Digital cameras make it so easy just to amass stuff and I can't resist.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Rod

You are right in the assumprion that fragments from several different sources have survived. And the parts that survive are not consistently from the same source throughout the war.

Based on this I have in fact been able to identify which part of the system that generated the so-called summary loss lists. It is also of interest to note that some of the copies have additional comments and corrections, while others are missing these.

The explanation is straight forward, and I will illustrate this (and hopefully enlighten someone with regards to what these lists were used for... hint, hint ;-) ). The key is the Verteiler, or the distribution list, for the documents. These were not documents kept as a single copy in the vaults at RLM, but spread throughout the following units. I have bolded the copy that I have available:

1940:
Generalfeldmarschall (ie Göring)
Staatssekretär d.Luft. u. Gen.Insp.d.Lw.
Chef des Generalstabes
Lw.Führungsstab Ia op
Lw.Führungsstab Ic (Presse)
Generalquartiermeister
Generalluftzeugmeister
L.Wehr
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.(IB) (Entwurf)

1941:
Reichsmarschall (Copy 1)
Staatssekr.d.Luftf.u.Gen.Insp.d.Lw. (Copy 2)
Chef des Generalstabes (Copy 3)
Lw.Führungsstab Ia (Copy 4)
Lw.Führungsstab Ic (Presse) (Copy 5)
Generalquartiermeister (Copy 6)
Generalluftzeugmeister (Copy 7)
L.P.Chefabteilung (Copy 8. - 10.)
L.P. I/IV (Copy 11. - 12.)
L.D. (Copy 13.)
Chef für Flugsicherheit (Copy 14.)
L. E. 2 (Copy 15.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.2.Abt. (Copy 16.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (IB, II, III) (Copy 17. - 19.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (IC) (Entw. und Vorr.) (Copy 20. - 21.)


1943:
Reichsmarschall (Copy 1)
Staatssekr.d.Luftf.u.Gen.Insp.d.Lw. (Copy 2 sent to these two)
Generalluftzeugmeister (Copy 2 sent to these two)
Lw.Führungsstab Ia (Copy 3)
L.P.Chefabteilung (Copy 4. - 6.)
L.P. I/IV (Copy 7. - 8.)
Chef für Flugsicherheit (Copy 9.)
Chef Nachschub d.Lw. (2. Abt.) (Copy 10.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (IB, III) (Copy 11. - 12.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (IC) (Entwurf) (Copy 13.)


These are only examples, the full overview will be posted in my upcoming article on loss reporting.

What I do think is VERY important to note here is that these lists were in fact distributed, controlled and used as can be seen by the fact that especially the Personalamt or Central personnel office gave a lot of feedback with regards to information contained in them. The distribution includes both the units that were responsible for safety (Chef für Flugsicherheit), the ones responsible for reinforcements of personnel and aircraft (Chef Nachschub d.Lw.), the people in charge of phasing in and out and evaluating aircraft models (Generalluftzeugmeister), the personnel offices (L.P.Chefabteilung and L.P. I/IV) and of course the top ranks of the high command with Görings office at the top, as well as the operative high command of the Luftwaffe.

In my opinion this further underlines the important role these documents played in all aspects of 'running' the Luftwaffe during WWII.

My hope is that we in due time will be able to follow this paper trail, and maybe identify more of the missing parts in archives or collections around the world. I am convinced that fragments especially of the 1944 parts MUST exist in former Soviet archives, as these would have been
stored in different places spread out through Berlin. It is of course possible that all 13 to 14 copies that were distributed were destroyed, but for some reason I find this unlikely (or maybe I am just hoping). I hope that someone, sometime will pull out a large file from a dusty shelf or paper bag and say ' Hmmmm interesting, loss records for the Luftwaffe... maybe I should check if anyone is interested in these' or 'Hmmmm - this file must have been misplaced - let me put it back into the RL 2 III were it should be...'

Regards,
Andreas B

[Tony Jones]

Peter Achs

You are correct here as IWM sent the paperwork to Germany but kept the microfilm.

Due to a hard disc failure I lost your details but on a recent visit to Duxford I looked again in the relevant Speer box and there was no further mention of Gassner so this the first opportunity to tell you

Regards
Tony