Amiot no 93 GB I/34 October 1939

[Andrei Demjanko]

One of the principles of source criticism is: primary source is more reliable than a secondary source. We have none of French primary sources available. That said I'm well aware that primary sources in general and Luftwaffe documents in patricular are not immaculate. It would be very interesting to know what Armée de l'Air records says about this incident

[rof120]

You could try the French archive:

SHD

(service historique de la défense), "Air" or "Armée de l'Air" dpt.

I understand some documents, or many, were digitized and are available online. If not you always can send an inquiry per surface-mail or e-mail.

Everything is in French, probably, but a written inquiry in English could be processed too (?).

I am not really interested in those old dinosaurs, which is why I am not researching this myself. If necessary I can translate SHORT texts into French for you guys. I'm very short of time.

[Bertrand H]

Hi Andrei,

According to the primary source - Journal de Marche et des Opérations de la 1ère Armée Aérienne - (diary) on date of 16 october 1939 they wrote that three a/c were lost : one is Amiot 143 of 34ème Escadre with Lamblin/Chable/Bondu/Begueret/Nomerange ; the two others losses were P63 of GR 1/33 and 1/52 and a British a/c.

We can guess that the losses occured night of 15/16 october

HTH

Bertrand

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Bertrand H

Hi Andrei,

According to the primary source - Journal de Marche et des Opérations de la 1ère Armée Aérienne - (diary) on date of 16 october 1939 they wrote that three a/c were lost : one is Amiot 143 of 34ème Escadre with Lamblin/Chable/Bondu/Begueret/Nomerange ; the two others losses were P63 of GR 1/33 and 1/52 and a British a/c.

We can guess that the losses occured night of 15/16 october

HTH

Bertrand

Fascinating Bertrand

All previous second hand sources says 14/15 Oct
Andrei, using a German report, says 16/17 Oct
Now you are actually quoting a French document saying it was the 15/16 Oct !.

Not easy for an outsider to be judge and jury on this one.....
Cheers
Stig

[Andrei Demjanko]

rof120

Many thanks for pointing out to SHD archive! I was not aware that documents of Armée de l'air were digitized.

Bertrand

Thanks a lot! I think we can put the puzzle together now.

Originally Posted by Bertrand H

We can guess that the losses occured night of 15/16 october

I do not know what time frame was covered in French reports. But in similar LW daily reports (well known Lageberichte IV. Fl.Korps, for example) all missions which started before midnight are covered so that in report, say, for 16 October, the missions of 16th and the night 16/17th would be described.

Both Potez 637's were lost during the day of 16, not during the night. Both of these losses do match with Flak and fighter claims. We could presume that the British aircraft mentioned is Whitley of 77 Sqn lost during the night 15-16 October, but most probably it was Blenheim of 57 Sqn shot down by fighters in the afternoon of 16th. So Amiot 143 most probably also took off some time in the evening of 16 October and failed to return.
To sum it up French Journal de Marche confirms information from Lagebericht and the correct date of loss is the night 16-17 October

[Bertrand H]

Hi Andrei,

Of course the documents of Armée de l'air at SHD are not digitized ; you must do it yourself as I have done for many years.

From the JMO of GB 1/34 they wrote that the a/c took off at 20h40 on 16/10/1939.

HTH

Bertrand

Attachment 18528

[Andrei Demjanko]

Bertrand

Thank you very much for posting this fragment of Journal de Marche et des Opérations! I very much appreciated it!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Bertrand

But this cannot be a report dated on the 16th?

This is a summary report dated much later and could well have discrepancies.
I have seen other of these summary reports before and without knowing the date they were actually written, it is impossible to make any 100% conclusions at all. Like all summary reports they were written by uninterested clerks given most likely a bunch of papers to make something out for somebody higher up.

I would say from French point of view we are back to square 1 again, since this is not what other French historians have used to either determine the actual aircraft (no s/n listed) or the date in question. So what did they use??

Cheers
Stig

[robert]

Hi,

following reports were filled by various German command posts on 16.9.39:

Morning report Civilian Administration to AOK1
Today at 01.00 hrs and 08.15 hrs busy flak activity in the area of Main-Rheine-Mulhouse.
At 01.00 hrs an English observation aircraft was shot down S of Trebur, district of Groß-Gerau and after 08.00 hrs a second English observation plane was shot down near Mannheim.


Daily report of AOK1
Enemy aerial activity was decreasing in relation to yesterday. 18 sorties had been flown by friendly aircraft. 4 enemy aircraft were shot down (2 in the area of Neunkirchen including one, which crashed in Warndt; 1 near Rüsselsheim, 1 during the low-level attack against bridge in Gernsheim).

There some more but I want to keep them for our forthcoming publication.

Robert

[Andrei Demjanko]

Robert

Originally Posted by robert

At 01.00 hrs an English observation aircraft was shot down S of Trebur, district of Groß-Gerau

Whitley of 77 Sqn.

Originally Posted by robert

and after 08.00 hrs a second English observation plane was shot down near Mannheim.

Potez strafing a bridge at Gernsheim

Originally Posted by robert

Daily report of AOK1
... 4 enemy aircraft were shot down (2 in the area of Neunkirchen including one, which crashed in Warndt; 1 near Rüsselsheim, 1 during the low-level attack against bridge in Gernsheim).

The total number of flak and fighter claims for 16 October was six. Type, location and time for each of these claims is known. Amiot is not amongst them, as it was lost in the early hours of 17 October