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Old 4th June 2007, 11:34
mickyz mickyz is offline
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2641st Special Group plane found in italy

2641st Special Group plane found in italy
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Hello,
a plane, believed to be a C-47 but later identified as a B-24, has been found in the italian Alps 35 kms north of Bergamo, northern italy.
Mixed with other plane parts used to compare the pieces (as the drop tank and the C-47 engine) here are some pics of the wreck: http://www.hoteladamello.it/marcopera/resti%20aereo/
Notice the olive drab paint on the wing and the star without bar.
I think it was an early version B-24, the plane hit the mount Pezzadello in an undefined date of october 1944, around 17:00 pm.
The plane was loaded with drop canisters, SMG, ammunition, canned beef and a lot of italian lire money.
The few witness remember at least 12/14 bodyes found around the crash site, some of these have an Italian-american name (may be OSS agents?). Looking information about the special operations groups losses, i have found this information:

date 4.10.44 - B24 s.n. 42-40697 - 885 BS, 2641st Spl Gp USAAF - Lt Sloan, Pilot - Northern Italy a/c crashed Northern Italy - Crew & 3 agents killed

I'll get the MACR, but waiting the macr anyone is able to give me some infos about Lt. Sloan, his plane and his mission? Thanks in advance

Mick
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Old 4th June 2007, 16:09
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 2641st Special Group plane found in italy

Apparently it was a CFIT accident ( Collision flight into terrain ), because I find no match on the Luftwaffe claims for B-24, Lancaster and Halifaxes that night or the night before 3/4 October.
Flak? Very improbable if it was around mountains...Engine problems? - perhaps! Lost ( faulty navigation )?
Very interesting this affair...I would like to hear more from you later. Maybe a collision in flight with a Russian Dakota? Or a RAF Dakota? Lt Walter Briegleb claimed a Wellington that night on 05 OST N/UO-84 from 300m. No further information...
Cheers
Adriano
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Old 4th June 2007, 17:24
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
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Re: 2641st Special Group plane found in italy

MACR 9444
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Old 4th June 2007, 18:32
mickyz mickyz is offline
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Re: 2641st Special Group plane found in italy

Thank guys, according to the latest news, the plane was in flame when hit the mountain. May be was hit by flak around Bergamo?
The witness are unable to remember an exact date, but remember clearly that was late afternoon when the plane crashed, around 17 or 18 pm.
Another fact: the plane was painted in OD scheme, but as i know the 2641 planes was painted all black. May be he borrowed a war weary plane from a normal BG? Sorry for my poor english!
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Old 5th June 2007, 02:42
dora9forever
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hi, intresting,on the photo the Eingine prop is not bent,check,maybe EINGINE fail,might be in order,
gary,
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Old 5th June 2007, 22:29
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Re: 2641st Special Group plane found in italy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner View Post
I find no match on the Luftwaffe claims for B-24, Lancaster and Halifaxes that night or the night before 3/4 October.
The Luftwaffe had no day fighter units based in Italy after the first days of September 1944 and no night fighters after early June 1944. I think you're probably right about it being an accident, especially in that terrain.
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Old 23rd June 2007, 03:49
mayfair35 mayfair35 is offline
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Re: 2641st Special Group plane found in italy

Nick Beale: You mentioned the Luftwaffe had no day fighters in Italy after first days of Sept 1944. Are you sure that is correct? I ask because I was just reviewing our 325th FG records after I left (Feb.1945) and I noted that on April 19th, Lt. Gertin encountered a FW-190 who made a pass at him. Gertin followed him to Verona A/D and when the 190 attempted to land, Gertin shot him down. On that same day while escorting B-25s to Ora Diversion Bridge, Italy our group ran into Me-109s and claimed 6 destroyed and 1 damaged. We always thought they were from the Po valley and did not realize there were no fighter aircraft there. I think John Voll also claimed that he ran into 20 Me-109s over the Po Valley and shot down 4 of them while he did a "falling leaf" maneuver. I believe that was also after Sept but I do not have those records. Do you have any idea where the above fighters were based and how often did they fly into Northern Italy during 1945? It seems to me we were wasting our resources escorting bombers to Northern Italy if there was no opposition?
Cordially, Art Fiedler
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Old 23rd June 2007, 09:22
kaki3152 kaki3152 is online now
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Re: 2641st Special Group plane found in italy

Art,

The Bf-109s were from the Aviazione dela Republica Socialista Italiana or
RSI. The Fw-190 was either NGSr-9 or See Not 20.
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Old 23rd June 2007, 22:41
mayfair35 mayfair35 is offline
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Re: 2641st Special Group plane found in italy

kaki3152
Thank you for your information. This shows how little I knew about the enemy order of battle. I had no idea that any Italian units were still flying against us after the Italian surrender. And in truth, even before the surrender, they had been content to stay off to the side of the bomber stream doing acrobatics rather than attacking. I am afraid that we developed a feeling of contempt for their lack of eagerness to engage.
Cordially, Art Fiedler
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Old 23rd June 2007, 23:00
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Re: 2641st Special Group plane found in italy

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayfair35 View Post
Nick Beale: You mentioned the Luftwaffe had no day fighters in Italy after first days of Sept 1944. Are you sure that is correct? I ask because I was just reviewing our 325th FG records after I left (Feb.1945) and I noted that on April 19th, Lt. Gertin encountered a FW-190 who made a pass at him. Gertin followed him to Verona A/D and when the 190 attempted to land, Gertin shot him down.
I know the story and it's covered in two books I've written. IF Gertin identified the aircraft correctly, it probably belonged to 1./NSG 9, then based at Villafranca di Verona (night ground attack), or to Stab NAG 11 (day tactical reconnaissance).

I've not found a source for this action from the German side, although that is much harder this late in the war.

Quote:
On that same day while escorting B-25s to Ora Diversion Bridge, Italy our group ran into Me-109s and claimed 6 destroyed and 1 damaged. We always thought they were from the Po valley and did not realize there were no fighter aircraft there. I think John Voll also claimed that he ran into 20 Me-109s over the Po Valley and shot down 4 of them while he did a "falling leaf" maneuver. I believe that was also after Sept but I do not have those records. Do you have any idea where the above fighters were based and how often did they fly into Northern Italy during 1945? It seems to me we were wasting our resources escorting bombers to Northern Italy if there was no opposition?
Cordially, Art Fiedler
The 109s attacking the B-25s were Italian (although their operational controller was a German colonel). At the time they were based at Malpensa and Lonate near Milan and at Aviano in north east Italy.

Voll's action (16 November 1944) can't be reconciled with any known losses on the Axis side - nor with any known operation with a 12-strong formation of Bf 109s and Fw 190s. Voll reported that the combat took place over the northern Adriatic and began with him chasing a Ju 88 (of which there were 2 or 3 in Italy then but operating by night exclusively). There were recon Bf 109s and Fw 190s based in NE Italy but every operation I've ever traced by them involved either 2 or 3 machines. The Italian 109s were in action that day but somewhat later than the time Voll gave.
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