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  #71  
Old 2nd November 2005, 08:10
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Friendly fire WWII

Troy
I am awared of no Soviet pilot being executed. It seems it was a propaganda piece aimed at Americans.

Brian
I have some stuff for US-Soviet combats but not sure if they should be called a friendly fire.
I have got German and Soviet incidents ready (without Polish Campaign), I will try to send you an email today.
I have found a note that on 26 September 1940 Kellet (303) was bounced by Spitfires - further digging necessary.
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  #72  
Old 2nd November 2005, 08:11
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Friendly fire WWII

Many thanks Six Nifty .50s - great stuff. Another name for the Acknowledgements List!! I am sincerely grateful

Best
Brian

Hi Six Nifty .50s - and other experts

A couple of queries re USAAF Mosquitos that you mention. In Merle Olmsted's excellent 'The Yoxford Boys' (357thFG) history, he confirms (on page 359) that the 357thFG shot down two Mosquitos, one on 12 August 1944 as indicated, but the other is not dated, and neither is mentioned in the narrative. Any ideas? Perhaps the second one was a RAF machine?

Secondly, regarding the shooting down of NS792 on 9 April 1945. I could be wrong, but I don't think any Free French unit was flying the P-51 at that date, and I haven't a FF Spitfire claim for a twin on that date. Maybe the culprit was a RAF Mustang or a US P-51. Again, any ideas?

While on the subject of FF pilots, Lt Raoul Rebiere of 328 Squadron (formerly GCI/7) flying a Spitfire shot down a US P-51 on 7 October 1944. Any ideas?

Last edited by Brian; 2nd November 2005 at 17:46.
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  #73  
Old 3rd November 2005, 04:17
Six Nifty .50s Six Nifty .50s is offline
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Six Nifty .50s
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Many thanks Six Nifty .50s - great stuff. Another name for the Acknowledgements List!! I am sincerely grateful
You're welcome, but George R. Sesler and Terry A. Fairfield deserve the credit because they consulted the original documents. I summarized their findings from An Accounting of the 25th Bomb Group (RCN, SP) and The 479th Fighter Group in World War II. The former is out of print but the latter, a rather hefty volume, is available from Schiffer Books.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
A couple of queries re USAAF Mosquitos that you mention. In Merle Olmsted's excellent 'The Yoxford Boys' (357thFG) history, he confirms (on page 359) that the 357thFG shot down two Mosquitos, one on 12 August 1944 as indicated, but the other is not dated, and neither is mentioned in the narrative. Any ideas? Perhaps the second one was a RAF machine?
Is that Olmsted's latest unit history from Eagle Editions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
regarding the shooting down of NS792 on 9 April 1945. I could be wrong, but I don't think any Free French unit was flying the P-51 at that date, and I haven't a FF Spitfire claim for a twin on that date. Maybe the culprit was a RAF Mustang or a US P-51.
Or a clipped wing RAF Spitfire with a teardrop canopy? Unfortunately Lt. Moore did not describe the paint job on the circling fighters, other than the roundels.

I have a few queries too (CBI theatre) perhaps you could fill in some of the blanks? In February 1945, an RAF trainer from No. 152 Squadron was misidentified as a Ki-43 Oscar and shot down by an RAF Spitfire, evidently piloted by Flying Officer D. W. Rathwell of No. 17 Squadron. The Harvard was carrying a war correspondent named Harry Ashley, who intended to take pictures of a battle developing near the Irrawaddy River. The Harvard pilot made a wheels up forced landing and although injured he posed for a photo by Ashley in front of the crashed aircraft. Would you know the serial numbers and the full name/rank of the Harvard pilot?

According to reminisces in Chaz Bowyer's Beaufighter At War there were several friendly fire incidents in the CBI. One account states that two Beaufighters were shot down into the Akyab swamps by USAAF planes, and another states that an RAF Beaufighter shot down a USAAF B-17 returning to Chittagong from a bombing mission. I don't know the dates, crew names or serials. Do you have other information?

Last edited by Six Nifty .50s; 4th November 2005 at 20:34.
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  #74  
Old 3rd November 2005, 12:43
Josh Osborne Josh Osborne is offline
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Re: Friendly fire WWII

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy White
There were so many incidents, I am sure you are going to have fun compiling them all. Here are a few more for you:

10 Sept 43 Lt. Pryblo 307th FS 31st FG-- Own Flak
22 May 44 Nick "Cowboy" Megura 334th FS-- 4th FG Shot down by P-38
6 June 44 Uffz. Winter 6./JG 26-- Own Flak
25 December Lt. Bouchier-- Own Flak
25 December Capt. Don Emmerson 336 FS 4th FG-- Own Flak
1 Jan 45 An RAF Typhoon or Tempest was shot down and the pilot KIA while in the landing pattern by a pilot from the 328th FS 352nd FG at Y-29 in Belgium.
1 Jan 45 out of about 300 aircraft lost by the Luftwaffe during Operation Bodenplatte about 100 were shot down by their own flak.

I also recall an incident where USAAF P-38s shot down a few Soviet fighters I believe in the Balkans near the end of the war.

And of course there was St. Lo...

That is just what I found in my notes and the very few books in my library.

I look forward to seeing how you present all of this stuff. I am sure some people will think this is a touchy subject but there are so many ways to get killed during a war. I used to live in Florida and during WWII there was an average of 1.25 military planes a day that crashed between Pearl Harbour and V-J Day and nobody was was shooting at them.

Cheers--

Troy
From the extremely well researched "Bodenplatte" by John Mahrno and Ron Putz, Luftwaffe losses from friendly fire during the Bodenplatte operation were only ~15% of losses, not the 33% reported in some other sources.
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  #75  
Old 3rd November 2005, 15:39
mhuxt mhuxt is offline
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mhuxt
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
A couple of queries re USAAF Mosquitos that you mention. In Merle Olmsted's excellent 'The Yoxford Boys' (357thFG) history, he confirms (on page 359) that the 357thFG shot down two Mosquitos, one on 12 August 1944 as indicated, but the other is not dated, and neither is mentioned in the narrative. Any ideas? Perhaps the second one was a RAF machine?
Might this have been NS856 of 107 Squadron, which Air Britain lists as having been shot down south of Dieppe by a P-51 on 28 March 1944?
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  #76  
Old 3rd November 2005, 16:03
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Friendly fire WWII

Hi guys

Thanks for the latest - grateful to both Josh and Mhuxt for your input - Mhuxt, I believe Mosquito NS856 fell to a 4thFG P-51, possibly flown by Lt Charles Anderson.

Six Nifty - I haven't fully completed my research for Volume 2, which covers the Far East, so I haven't the detail yet that you require apart from:

1) The Harvard was flown by a Flg Off Jackson.

2) On 20/12/44 a B-29 (not B-17) was shot down in error (at night) by a Beaufighter flown by Sqn Ldr R.B. Morrison of 176 Squadron (one killed, 11 baled out).

3) On 28/5/44 a Beaufighter of 211 Squadron flown by W/Os J.W. Goddard RAAF and E.M. Boom was shot down by P-51 from 530thFS/311rdFG. Both crew killed. Identity of US pilot unknown to me.

4) 16/11/44 two Beaufighters of 211 Squadron were shot down by P-38s from 459thFS flown by 1/Lts Vern L. Flanders and Walter H. Patton. Two crew were killed in one machine, the pilot survived from the second machine but his navigator died of wounds.

I expect you are aware of other notable friendly fire incidents in CBI such as Boyington shooting down a USN Hellcat flown by Lt Richard Moore on 18/9/43; Capt Robert Owens USMC ace shot down by his wingman (identity unknown to me) on 24/1/44; Ace Capt James Swett shot down a RNZAF P-40 on 31/10/43. RAAF Catalina shot up by USMC Wildcat on 26/6/43 (identities of both unknown to me).

Keep 'em coming!

Cheeers
Brian

Last edited by Brian; 3rd November 2005 at 16:57.
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  #77  
Old 3rd November 2005, 20:43
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Quite interesting stories from PTO were in old Kookaboora book about RAAF markings. There was an account of a RAAF Kitty pilot, who, with the Squadron, were briefed by 49 FG before entering operations. They were shown with a series of guncam movies and a disscussion started. After some comments, US officer said more less: gentlemen, please note that all the aircraft on the movie had white tails. This caused a stunning silence.
Cheers
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  #78  
Old 4th November 2005, 14:09
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Friendly fire WWII

For attention of Bob Collis

I did respond to your message - see Post 31. I was waiting for a call from you. Perhaps you would care to buzz me. I look forward to that.

Cheers
Brian

PS: I am unable to post messages apart from using Quick Reply! What am I doing wrong, or not doing?
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  #79  
Old 5th November 2005, 05:44
Six Nifty .50s Six Nifty .50s is offline
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Six Nifty .50s
Re: Friendly fire WWII

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Hi guys

Thanks for the latest - grateful to both Josh and Mhuxt for your input - Mhuxt, I believe Mosquito NS856 fell to a 4thFG P-51, possibly flown by Lt Charles Anderson.

Six Nifty - I haven't fully completed my research for Volume 2, which covers the Far East, so I haven't the detail yet that you require apart from:

1) The Harvard was flown by a Flg Off Jackson.

2) On 20/12/44 a B-29 (not B-17) was shot down in error (at night) by a Beaufighter flown by Sqn Ldr R.B. Morrison of 176 Squadron (one killed, 11 baled out).

3) On 28/5/44 a Beaufighter of 211 Squadron flown by W/Os J.W. Goddard RAAF and E.M. Boom was shot down by P-51 from 530thFS/311rdFG. Both crew killed. Identity of US pilot unknown to me.

4) 16/11/44 two Beaufighters of 211 Squadron were shot down by P-38s from 459thFS flown by 1/Lts Vern L. Flanders and Walter H. Patton. Two crew were killed in one machine, the pilot survived from the second machine but his navigator died of wounds.

I expect you are aware of other notable friendly fire incidents in CBI such as Boyington shooting down a USN Hellcat flown by Lt Richard Moore on 18/9/43; Capt Robert Owens USMC ace shot down by his wingman (identity unknown to me) on 24/1/44; Ace Capt James Swett shot down a RNZAF P-40 on 31/10/43. RAAF Catalina shot up by USMC Wildcat on 26/6/43 (identities of both unknown to me).

Keep 'em coming!

Cheeers
Brian

Thanks for the 411. Brian, my database is too large to post here, but here are a few random cases you may not know about...

December 21st, 1939
RAF Hampden L4089. 44 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF Spitfires of 602 Sqdn. off New Berwick. Crew rescued by a fishing boat.

December 21st, 1939
RAF Hampden L4090. 44 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF Spitfires of 602 Sqdn. off New Berwick. One fatality, other crewmen rescued by a fishing boat.

July 4th, 1940
RAF Gladiator N5751. 33 Sqdn. Destroyed over Bug Bug, believed to be shot down by British AA fire. F/O W.B. Price-Owen parachuted safely.

September 29th, 1940
RN Swordfish (serial in question). 813 Sqdn. Crashed into sea after being hit by friendly fire near Mersa Matruh. Crew unharmed. Other details unknown to me.

November 11th, 1940
SAAF Gladiator N5813. 2 Sqdn. Shot down by friendly AA fire and flipped over on landing on island in the Nile. Lt. B. R. Dimmock injured.

June 22nd, 1941
RAF Manchester L7314. 207 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF Beaufighter of 25 Sqdn. over Wollaston. Entire crew KIA. Other details unknown to me.

July 2nd, 1941
RAF Wellington R1516. 311 Sqdn. Shot down by RAF night-fighter over Wiltshire. Entire crew KIA. Other details unknown to me.

February 15th, 1942
RAF Liberator AM918. Shot down in error over the English Channel near Plymouth. Entire crew KIA. Other details unknown to me.

April 4th, 1942
USAAF P-40 41-5551. 49th PG. Shot down by Australian AA fire over Darwin. Lt. Grover Gardner bailed out safely.

April 4th, 1942
USAAF P-40 (serial in question). 49th PG. Seriously damaged by Australian AA fire over Darwin. With the controls shot up the plane skidded off the runway upon landing and crashed into a treeline, killing Lt. Livingstone.

May 2nd, 1942
RAF Spitfire BL666. Damaged in attack by an RAF Beaufighter. Other details unknown to me.

May 5th, 1942
RAF Stirling R9313. 218 Sqdn. Shot down by an RAF aircraft near Petworth, Sussex. Other details unknown to me.

September 15th, 1942
RAF Kittyhawk AK694. 112 Sqdn. Shot down by British AA fire, crashed near Homuth. Sgt. C.O. Young, RNZAF, injured.

October 21st, 1942
RAF Stirling BF390. 7 Sqdn. Shot down by British AA fire off Yarmouth. Other details unknown to me.

December 2nd, 1942
RAF Beaufighter (serial in question). 89 Sqdn. Shot down by British AA fire from Malta. Crew bailed out safely. Other details unknown to me.

December 16th, 1942
RAF Marauder FK367. 14 Sqdn. Shot down by Spitfire off Benghazi. Other details unknown to me.

December 22nd, 1942
RAF Spitfire ER602. Shot down by Allied AA fire. Other details unknown to me.

December 27th, 1942
RAF Hudson FK389. 117 Sqdn. Shot down by USAAF fighters at Thelepte. Other details unknown to me.

March 24th, 1943
RAF Spitfire BR302 was attacked by RAF Typhoons and then collided with Spitfire BS448. The pilot of BR302 made a forced landing at Ibsley. The pilot of BS448 bailed out over Devon. Apparently this occurred during a training exercise and it was not made clear if the Typhoons were supposed to be there. Other details unknown to me.

April 13th, 1943
RAF Hudson FK401. Shot down by RAF Beaufighter off Algiers. Other details unknown to me.

April 23rd, 1943
USAAF P-51, A-36, or F-6 (serial in question). 154th OS. Shot down by Allied AA fire in North Africa. Other details unknown to me.

May 25th, 1943
RAF Typhoon (serial in question). 486 Sqdn. Misidentifed as an Fw 190, damaged by cannon-fire from other Typhoons in the same squadron. F/Lt. A.E. Umbers unmolested.

July 10th, 1943
USAAF A-36A 42-84075. 86th FBG. Shot down by U.S. Navy AA fire over the Mediterranean. Lt. A. R. Fleischmann, KIA.

July 12th, 1943
RAAF Beaufort A9-225. 100 Sqdn. Crew of this aircraft mistakenly opened fire on a USN PB4Y-1 of VD-1, which returned fire and shot down the Beaufort. Other details unknown to me.

14th July 1943
RAF Spitfire X4818. Shot down by student pilot. Instructor killed. Other details unknown to me.

July 28th, 1943
RAF Mosquito DZ600. Shot down by an RAF Mosquito night-fighter near Ipsden. Other details unknown to me.

August 27th, 1943
USAAF P-47 (serial in question). 56th FG. Damaged in attack by RAF Spitfires while returning from a sweep to Lille, France. Other details unknown to me.

September 11th, 1943
RAF Spitfire EF674. Shot down by Allied gunfire. Other details unknown to me.

November 11th, 1943
USN F4U-1 Corsair 17629. VF-17. Slightly damaged by another Corsair off Rabaul. Lt. Commander John T. Blackburn not injured and landed his plane safely. His XO, Lt. Commander Roger R. Hedrick, misidentified Blackburn's plane while chasing a Japanese fighter through clouds and broke off after firing a short burst.

November 29th, 1943
USAAF P-47D 42-8601. 356th FG. Shot down by USAAF B-17 near Aschendorf. Lt. Warren A. Beach bailed out and was taken prisoner.

21st December 1943
RAF Lancaster DS704. 408 Sqdn. Shot down by the tail gunner of another Lancaster near Limburg. Crew bailed out, two men killed. Other details unknown to me.

December 30th, 1943
USAAF P-40s (several from 79th FG) were returning from a ground attack mission in Italy when attacked by RAF Spitfires. Fortunately all of the shots missed.

December 30th, 1943
USAAF P-40 (serial in question). 79th FG. Shot down by British AA fire near Ortona, Italy. Lt. Edwin Joh bailed out safely.

December 30th, 1943
RAF Baltimore FA230. Seriously damaged by friendly fire off Rosetta, Egypt. Other details unknown to me.

April 1st, 1944
RAF Ventura FP633. Believed to be shot down by RAF Beaufighter. Other details unknown to me.

April 20th, 1944
RAF Spitfire EN291. Destroyed following attack by USAAF P-38 in Italy. Other details unknown to me.

April 26th, 1944
RAF Mitchell FR142. Shot down by RAF Mosquito and crashed near Headcorn, U.K. Other details unknown to me.

May 1944
USAAF P-47 (serial in question). 406th FG. Damaged by gunfire from RAF B-25; crew apparently RCAF. Date is a guesstimate. Other details unknown to me.

May 12th, 1944
USAAF P-51 (serial in question). 359th FG. Slightly damaged by gunfire from another Mustang after Lt. Robert L. Thacker flew across the path of Capt. Charles C. Ettlesen, who was strafing parked aircraft near Thamsbruck.

June 6th, 1944
On D-Day, RAF Dakotas from 233 Sqdn. came under AA fire from British ships as they flew over the Normandy invasion beaches, near the mouth of the River Orne. Two damaged Dakotas were forced to turn back before they dropped supplies. Another Dakota ditched in the Channel, and five other planes were reported missing, believed shot down by friendly fire. (I have read conflicting information about this incident, perhaps someone can sort it out).

June 10th, 1944
USAAF P-47 (serial in question). 56th FG. Damaged by USAAF P-38 during a ground attack mission in France. Other details unknown to me.

June 10th, 1944
RAF Spitfire EE685. Shot down by Allied warships off Normandy. Other details unknown to me.

July 6th, 1944
USAAF P-38J 42-68109. 370th FG. Shot down by Allied AA fire near Cherbourg. Lt. Wesley E. Holtdorf , KIA.

July 30th, 1944
USAAF P-51B (serial in question). 31st FG. Shot down by USAAF P-38 near Budapest, Hungary. Maj. Ernest Shipman was taken prisoner.

31st July 1944
USAAF P-51 (serial in question). 31st FG. Pilot was shot down by his wingman during a dogfight with Me 109s over Ploesti. The two were separated in a cloud formation when Lt. Edmund Gubler opened fire on Lt. Dennis Riddle, who bailed out safely. Gubler then landed nearby to pick him up. This had been done successfully by other Mustang pilots, but this plane was unable to take off from soft ground. Both men were taken prisoner.

August 12th, 1944
RAF Liberator EV878. Shot down over English Channel by HMS Onslow. Other details unknown to me.

August 13th, 1944
USAAF P-47D 42-75230. 356th FG. Shot down by British AA fire near Martlesham Heath. Lt. Henry L. Lewis, KIA.

August 14th, 1944
USAAF P-47D 42-8491. 356th FG. Shot down by American AA fire near Laval. Lt. Louis G. Alphonse, KIA.

August 17th, 1944
RAF Spitfire MJ398. 602 Sqdn. Force-landed after attack by Mustangs. Other details unknown to me.

November 11th, 1944
RAF Spitfire (serial in question). Shot down by a USAAF P-51 near Padua, Italy. F/Lt. A. M. Cummings, KIA. Another Spitfire (serial in question) flown by F/Lt. Creed was damaged by gunfire from the same flight of Mustangs.

December 18th, 1944
RAF Spitfire NH720. 130 Sqdn. Damaged by Allied AA fire. Other details unknown to me.

December 23rd, 1944
RAF Spitfire RB169. 350 Sqdn. Damaged by Allied AA fire. Other details unknown to me.

February 3rd, 1945
USAAF P-47s (several from 56th FG). Attacked by RAF Spitfires near Berlin. Fortunately all of the shots missed.

February 4th, 1945
RAAF Beaufighter A8-85. 93 Sqdn. One of several aircaft that attacked a civilian yacht owned by the Rajah of Sarawak (misidentified as a Japanese oil tanker). The Beaufighter was damaged by flying debris from exploding rockets and crash-landed in jungle near Kucing. F/Lt. Sims and F/O Arrant eventually returned to base.

March 4th, 1945
USAAF B-17G 43-37516. Shot down by British AA fire over Essex. Crew bailed out but there were some fatalities. Wreckage came down in mudflats of River Stout. Other details unknown to me.

April 10th, 1945
USAAF A-26 (serial in question). Shot down by USAAF P-51s from the 356th FG. Other details unknown to me.

April 20th, 1945
U.S. Army L-5 liaison aircraft (serial in question) was enroute to Reidfeld when attacked by an RAF fighter which appeared to be a Spitfire. One of the passengers was General George S. Patton, and fortunately the L-5 pilot successfully evaded the threat with low level maneuvering. The RAF pilot, his name unknown to me, made several firing passes and then crashed after failing to pull out of a dive.

April 24th, 1945
RAF Mosquito (serial in question). 409 Sqdn. Shot down by another RAF Mosquito near Rheine. P/O L. E. Fitchett and P/O A. C. Hardy crash-landed near B108 airfield.

Last edited by Six Nifty .50s; 5th November 2005 at 17:48.
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  #80  
Old 5th November 2005, 07:48
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Friendly fire WWII

Wow! Thanks indeed Six Nifty. You'll have to let me have your real identity sometime so that I am able to fully acknowledge your asssiatnce in the forthcoming book. I do have the majority of those incidents you have so generously listed, but there are a few new to me. I do really appreciate your time and effort.

Cheers
Brian
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