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  #1  
Old 8th March 2005, 12:49
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Stkz anomaly: Bf 109 G-2 JU+XY (FinnAF MT-217)

Salut!

Solid data based comments are looked for this Stammkennzeichen anomaly.

In 1943 Finnish Air Force received Bf 109 G-2/R1 Trop* WNr 10357, which was coded as MT-217. The Stammkennzeichen for the plane was JU+XY, which goes against the traditional rules (= JU stood for Junkers).

Finnish unit diary text explicitly ties code MT-217 with code JU+XY. The same code JU+XY is also found from the transferring pilot's flight logbook. In others words two written and independent primary sources.

Yet from German loss lists (BA-MA RL2 III Gen. Qu. 6.) is found accident for the same WNr 10357 (4./JG54 Nov. 6th, 1942 at Demyansk), but Stammkennzeichen given as BG+OM!

Questions:

Is the Stkz BG+OM found in the original loss list or is it an addition by some researcher/loss list creator?

Is there listed any accident/loss for a nearby WNr which would have Stkz JU+XY (and there would have occurred a mix-up)?
(edited addition: What were the Bf 109 losses for the day Nov 6th, 1942?)

Can anyone give any other examples of Stkz JU+X_, JU+__ etc. ?


Not directly related, but does anyone have Stammkennzeichen for Bf 109 G-2 WNr 10522 (FinnAF MT-221) or nearby?


AFAIK due their nature Stammkennzeichen did not change ever, much like US Navy Bureau Number. Something is wrong here and at least I would give the nod for the Finnish sources (note plural). NOTE! Valtonen's book is of no help here as it gives incorrect Stkz.


Comments, additional data etc. welcomed.


Thanking in advance,
Kari Lumppio


* The subtype from FinnAF "Monatmeldungen" (use of German planes in FinnAF) to Germany. Subtype given possibly/probably as manufactured and not the current status.
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  #2  
Old 9th March 2005, 00:29
Rabe Anton Rabe Anton is offline
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Rabe Anton
Servus, Kari!

Concerning the Stammkennzeichen for Bf 109G-2 WNr. 10 357, it cannot be J U + X Y. There are two reasons for this. First, so far as I know, the Luftwaffe never assigned SKZ beginning with "J." Second, I have the SKZ B Q + O L for Bf 109G-2 WNr. 10 356 from a primary source.

So, Kari, we really have another question here. Is the SKZ for WNr. 10 357 B Q + O M or B G + O M?

I assume that you found B G + O M in a Lw. daily materiel loss report?

All very interesting. Perhaps Peter Evans, Tom Willis, or Dirk Lehmann will speak up here.

Best,

RA
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  #3  
Old 10th March 2005, 08:37
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabe Anton
Servus, Kari!

Concerning the Stammkennzeichen for Bf 109G-2 WNr. 10 357, it cannot be J U + X Y. "
Like I wrote JU+XY is found from two independent written primary sources. Therefore I just cannot accept that it is not possible. Where would the code taken if not from the side of the plane? Code for another G-2 from the same unit diary is confirmed by photos (DL+IC). Why just this JU+XY one would have been taken out of hat?

Quote:
"I assume that you found B G + O M in a Lw. daily materiel loss report?"
I actually got the data via a friend, orginal source given in the previous message. BQ+OM is of course possiblity, but I don't know if the original loss list has the Stkz or is it added later by someone.


I am pretty sure there is some logical explanation for all this but which?


Regards,
Kari
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  #4  
Old 10th March 2005, 17:58
Rabe Anton Rabe Anton is offline
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Finnish AF Bf 109G-2 SKZ

Gruß Gott Kari!

Well, it seems now that we have an ongoing mystery plus a difference of opinions!

I cannot explain the J U + X Y code references to a Finnish AF Bf 109G-2 that you have found, it seems a mystery to me. In no way wish to argue, but I must repeat that based on the patterns which appear in the tens of thousands of SKZ references (loss reports, NVLM, Flugbücher, recovery reports, factory documents) as well as thousands of photographs that I've seen, the Luftwaffe did not issue SKZ beginning with "J." Of course, it's statistically possible that only a tiny number of SKZ beginning with J were assigned, but it seems highly unlikely to me that at least one of these has escaped notice, especially in a photograph.

The SKZ did not necessarily have to be painted on the outside of the airplane, especially if it had been repaired. SKZ were often painted inside the airframe, particularly in the cockpit area. SKZ also frequently appeared on compass cards, Lebenslaufakten, factory documentation, and other documentation. . . . But you already know all of this!

I looked at my files, and the LwGQM daily loss report for WNr. 10 357 on 6 Nov. 1942 does not record the airplane's SKZ. It is also interesting, isn't it, that Keskinen and Stenman did not record a SKZ for MT-217 in their monograph on the Bf 109G in Finnish AF service? Even the new edition of their book doesn't have a SKZ entered for MT-217. . . .

Kari, the approximate date(s) of the movement of this airplane to Finland should be known. Is it possible, therefore, that you have access to the Malmi A/D, Helsinki, Finland, register of transient aircraft? Does a Bf 109 coded J U + X Y or B Q + O M or B G + O M appear in this register?

It seems to me that we must call on some other opinions and/or outside help here. Peter Evans, Dirk Lehmann, or Tom Willis, are any of you listening?!

RA
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  #5  
Old 10th March 2005, 19:26
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Hello!

Yes I know/knew everything you wrote about Stkz already - that's why the title "anomaly".

Actually this "fight" is not my fight at all - I'm acting sort of middleman here.

It should be noted too that the code JU+XY is mentioned three times in the unit diary at three different dates. The unit in question is 1./LeLv 34 and their war diary is at Sota-arkisto, Helsinki, archival code spk 17937.

First time the codes "DL+IC" and "JU+XY" are mentioned at May 17th, 1943. These two planes were left at Malmi (Helsinki), while nine Bf 109s went to Utti lead by Luukkanen. Next time the two planes are mentioned May 19th, 1943 when a painter from VL (Valtion Lentokonetehdas) arrived at Malmi to paint planes "MT-217 (JU+XY)" and "MT-222 (DL+IC)". Third time they are mentioned on the next day (20th) when the planes "MT-217 (JU+XY)" and "MT-222 (DL+IC)" were painted and ready.


Of the Keskinen et all reprint etc. I hope am not creating any hard feelings on the part of the authors, but the text of the reprinted book has had only cosmetic changes. That the book doesn't give any "new" Stkz is the direct result of no new real research done since the first edition.

AFAIK Gerhard Stemmer has been consulted and reportedly is on the brink of accepting that code JU+XY did exist. Was it the Stkz is another matter (though what would it be then?).


With Best regards,
Kari
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  #6  
Old 11th March 2005, 11:15
Tony Jones Tony Jones is offline
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Kari

You aSKed for other examples of JU+** codes

I have from flugbuchs
Ju 52 JU+BM and RA
Ju 88 JU+SE
Ju 87 JU+EK
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  #7  
Old 11th March 2005, 15:05
Rabe Anton Rabe Anton is offline
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J U + - - as a Stammkennzeichen Allocation

Servus, Kari, Tony, et al!

Is it just a coincidence that the J U + - - codes that Tony has put up were all borne by Junkers aircraft?! Indeed, the reason is very likely that these J U + - - markings were left over from the short period (few weeks only)
in 1939 when a kind of interim or "proto" Stammkennzeichen system was employed for military aircraft. The codes in this short-lived system reflected the manufacturer and perhaps a particular factory: "W" is known for Wiener-Neustädter Fabrik, "H" for Heinkel, "F" for Focke Wulf, and so forth. It further appears that at least some of these "proto Stammkennzeichen" endured for a very long time after initial assignment—perhaps permanently—while others (such as that for the Fw 190 V prototype) were quickly replaced by a "normal" or "traditional" Stammkennzeichen.

Because so many anomalies and oddities show up in Luftwaffe markings practice, it is of course possible that the Bf 109G-2 that Kari is offering bore a "J U + - - " code. But I for one still remain skeptical that this "J U + - - " code represented the proper SKZ for WNr. 10 357. The answer—if Gerd Stemmer or someone else has it—will be most interesting to hear. I hope, Kari, that you will continue to keep us posted.

Best,

RA
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  #8  
Old 11th March 2005, 17:50
Tom1UK Tom1UK is offline
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JU+XY Debate or Debacle??

Hi Gentleman

I do not have anything in my Stkz files for JU+XY or BQ+OM. I do have other JU+.. but these are from Junkers and dated from before the official allocation of Stkz.

But in my files for the Bf109G-2s built by Erla I have the following:

G-1 10299 - 10318 KA+KA - KA+KT
G-2 10319 - 10322 KA+KU - KA+KZ
G-2 10325 - 10350 ..+.A - ..+.Z
G-2 10351 - 10358 ..+.. - ..+.. Gap of 8 a/c
G-2 10359 - 10384 RF+FA - RF+FZ
G-2 10385 - 10410 ..+.A - ..+.Z
G-2 10411 - 10418 ..+.. - ..+.. Gap of 8 a/c
G-2 10419 - 10444 ..+.A - ..+.Z
G-2 10445 - 10470 GE+WA - GE+WZ

I have had these on file for many years now and always on the look-out to see if any 'prime-source' material to fill in the gaps.

It would seem that JU+XY could do just that. This would seem to fit in with the 8 gap section. The last a/c being JU+XZ

Because of the large amounts of Stkz blocks being employed on Fighter and Bomber production it seems only logical that old doctrines of not using 'J' because of its assimilation to the letter 'I' would be dropped. Perhaps we now have the proof that this was indeed the case.

Rabe can you perhaps clear up the BQ+OL anomoly. From what source did this come from?

Perhaps Rabe and Kari are correct and instead of an 8 a/c gap in the Stkz there was a six gaps followed by a 2 gap. In a lot of cases sometimes the gaps were just 1 a/c. The rest of my files for the Erla production run give other examples of 8, 6 & 4 gaps. So why not 2.

I hope that this keeps the debate going and a positive result will be achieved.

Regards


Tom Willis
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  #9  
Old 11th March 2005, 23:23
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markojeras markojeras is offline
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Ex-Luftwaffe 109s in Finnland

Please allow me to join this discussion. From my research I know that at least two Gustavs that were used by 15./JG 52 on the Eastern front ended in Finland. What I do not know, is the codes of this planes. Did they changed to similar 'anomaly' for transfer flight to Finland?

Another 'strange' code I found on 15./JG 52 plane is 'GT+WM'. And I have not heard from anyone to have found similar code on Bf 109 G-2. Or...?

With best regards,

Marko
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  #10  
Old 12th March 2005, 00:11
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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"Kroatian" G-2s in Finland

Hello!

From Hannu Valtonen's "Messerschmitt BF 109 ja Saksan sotatalous" (ISBN 951-95688-7-5) pp. 320-321* we can see that MT-225, MT-234 and MT-247 had earlier served in 15./JG52. Original source given is Matti Salonen's loss list compilations and (MT) plane individuals' archived documents held at Sota-arkisto. Mr. Salonen is listed also on the memberlist of this forum.

Following data from the Valtonen's book (p. 323) if not otherwise given.

MT-225 was WNr 13577, and it's Stkz according the latest published data** was DH+UQ (Valtonen doesn't give any Stkz).

MT-234 was WNr 13989 and Stkz VI+MO.

MT-247 was WNr 14822 and Stkz NN+ZB.


Additionally MT-246 (WNr 14672, Stkz KG+WT) had served with "7./Rum.JGr." in addition to 5./JG3.


All in all the later arriving (used) FinnAF Bf 109 G-2s - MT-217-247 - are quite a motley collection. Even in their colours, see for example the photo on the Valtonen's book p. 35 (in bigger format also in SIH 1/2005, p. 22).

BTW The beforementioned photo also shows clearly one of the funniest Stkz ever: BI+ER! (WNr 14254, later MT-230 WNr NOW CORRECTED!, KL). At the background there is plane which shows the last two letters of (JA+)PP (WNr 13736, later MT-227) - according the SIH article. Too much to believe?


Cheers,
Kari


*(Liite 3, "Suomeen tulleiden MT-koneiden aikaisempia vaiheita")

** Suomen ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti 1/2005, p. 22-24.
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