Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims

[Juha]

Gabor and Nick
thanks for your Hartmann info.

Juha

[HGabor]

You are most welcome.
Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Juha,

Anytime.

Nick

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

[quote So please, anyone who can, come forth and help to clarify this issue.
Cheers,

Gabor quote]

Hi Gabor,

The above was my best effort. Can anyone improve on what Gabor and myself have put here....?

I've read ..and exploited... the Khazanov article "352 victories ..or 80?" which appeared a few years ago in the French 'Le Fana de l'Aviation'. Khazanov's 'research' as presented in the article details a number of occasions when Hartmann claimed multiple victories and where the VVS suffered few or no losses at all.

* 29.05.1944: During the Soviet air strike against the Romanian airbase of Novela, Erich Hartmann claimed three "LaGG-7s" (La-5s) shot down. The Soviet 5 VA did suffer losses - three Il-2, but the 302 IAD, which provided escort for the attack and was equipped with the La-5FN, did not suffer any losses ..

* 4.06.1944: on this date during the fourth sortie of the day, Hartmann and his wingman Birkner were jumped by two Airacobras, with Hartmann shooting down both P-39s. Khazanov determined that they would have been the Airacobras flown by Mayor B. B. Gakhaet and Leytenant Nikolay L. Trofimov of the famous 16 GIAP. Both Airacobras returned home "..without a scratch! "

* 4.07.1944: Hartmann claimed three Il-2s north of Yassy, which were attacking German artillery positions. The formation attacked by Hartmann were 12 Il-2s of the 2 ShAK led by Leytenant Frolov, but they lost only one Shturmovik, which made a belly-landing in Soviet-held territory.

* 24.08.1944: on this day Hartmann claimed his victories Nos.299 to 303 over the Soviet beachhead of Sandomierz across the Vistula river - all four were P-39s. The only unit equipped with Aircobras providing cover to Sandomierz were from the elite 9 GIAD led by Polkovnik Aleksandr Pokryshkin - they sustained no losses in air combat that day. One Soviet P-39 pilot was reported missing after becoming separated from his comrades, "...who may have been downed by Hartmann. "..But at most Hartmann could score only one victory that day, never four...."

On 20 August 1943 Hartmann himself was shot down: according to his account (in Toliver), he dispatched two Il-2s before being hit by anti-aircraft fire. He managed to belly-land and was captured for a short period of time (later he evaded). In fact Khazanov was able to determine, that according to Soviet records, what Hartmann attacked was a group of Shturmoviks of the 232 ShAP. One of the Il-2 pilots, Leytenat Pavel Evdokimov, saw a "Messer" jump his comrade V. Ermakov, who , firing at close range managed to put a 20-mm burst into the Bf.109, which performed a belly-landing - this was Hartmann's Bf.109 G-6. No Il-2 were lost by 232 ShAP that day, although two were damaged. Once again, Hartmann's "kills" were overclaims (even when in this case both were in good faith). And he was not downed by flak, but by Shturmovik pilot Pavel Evdokimov.

Khazanov conceeds that indeed Hartmann was a dangerous opponent, crediting him with at least two victories against Soviet aces: on 16.10.1943 he shot down the La-5 of Starshiy Leytenant Ivan Nikitovich Sytov (30 victories, 5 GIAP), and on 1.03.1945 the Yak-9 of Kapitan Sergey Ivanovich Lazarev (728 IAP, 256 IAD), but not before Lazarev shot down the Bf 109 G-14 of Hartmann's wingman G. Kapito (Lazarev's victory No.26)..."

[Nick Hector]

Thanks, Falke Eins.

But let's get back on topic if all of this is such a completely different thread.

How about we ask Knusel to clarify his aim. Which of the following is he actually trying to achieve:

Re-writing or updating the lists of aces in the back of such books as Barbas's Planes of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, or perhaps more comprehensively the one in the back of Toliver and Constable's Horridoh...
...and then combined with those in the unit histories published by Prien, Roekker et al....?

Knusel, Michael if you prefer, some of us are confused and would sincerely like to know how best we can assist you. Please clarify...

[Maxim1]

As per Nikita Egorov:

106. OVERCLAIM 26.09.1943 7:05 P-39
107. OVERCLAIM 26.09.1943 9:55 P-39

163. OVERCLAIM 08.01.1944 14:15 P-39 - in fact P-39 of 69 GIAP flown by st.-leyt. Belyayev. It was only slightly damaged.
164. OVERCLAIM 08.01.1944 14:20 P-39
165. OVERCLAIM 08.01.1944 14:30 P-39

192. OVERCLAIM 04.02.1944 11:40 P-39
193. OK 26.02.1944 9:08 P-39 - P-39 of 129 GIAP flown by ml.-leyt. Leontiy Zadiraki. Pilot baled out.
194. OVERCLAIM 26.02.1944 9:16 P-39
195. OK 26.02.1944 11:45 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by ml.-leyt. Demchenko. Belly landed and repaired later.
196. OK 26.02.1944 11:48 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by ml.-leyt. Mamin. Pilot baled out.
197. OK 26.02.1944 11:53 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by st.-leyt. Rybakov. Pilot baled out.
198. OK 26.02.1944 11:58 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by leyt. Zinchenko. Pilot killed.
199. POSSIBLE 26.02.1944 12:03 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by ml.-leyt. Motuzko (shared with Walter Krupinski). Belly landed and repaired later.
200. POSSIBLE BUT LIKELY OVERCLAIM 26.02.1944 14:40 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by ml.-leyt. Vodolazhski (shared with Gunther Rall and Herbert Bachnick). Pilot baled out.
201. POSSIBLE 26.02.1944 14:45 P-39 P-39 of 438 IAP flown by leyt. Oleynikov (shared with Gunther Rall and Herbert Bachnick).
202. POSSIBLE BUT LIKELY OVERCLAIM 26.02.1944 14:50 P-39 - P-39 of 438 IAP flown by leyt. Lusto (shared with Gunther Rall and Herbert Bachnick). Belly landed and repaired later.

[Maxim1]

Also I have this though I can't remember the source:

1. OK 05.11.1942 12:05 Il-2 - Il-2 of 7 GShAP
2. OVERCLAIM 27.01.1943 11:30 MiG-1
3. POSSIBLE 09.02.1943 10:20 LaGG-3 - shared with Ernst Lohberg, Helmut Friese and Adalbert Sommer

352. OVERCLAIM 08.05.1945 9:00~ Jak-9

[Alfred.MONZAT]

Hi FalkeEins,

If you remember the number of the issues of Fana de l'Aviation and Air Magazine you mention in your article, can you provide them please.

Regards

Alfred

[Broncazonk]

All of the incredibly valuable Hartmann claim data that's been posted into this thread is going to get lost in a forest of threads unless we find a way to tag it. (It's probably too late to add, "(Hartmann Claim Data)" to the title.)

Suggestions?

Bronc

[Nick Beale]

This new thread is in response to members' suggestions for a discussion comparing Hartmann's individual claims to what can be established from the documented losses of his opponents.

I've transferred relevant posts from an older thread to this one. Hope that suits everyone.