Commonwealth P40 Aces

[Vinman]

Hi,
I just purchased the Ospery book and it seems that there are a lot of P40 Aces, according to the author.
Upon further reading, the list in the back inlcudes individul plus shared victories. Also, one ace in particluar, G.W. Troke, is listed with 3 ind + 2 sh and in the book, it states that this includes 2 ground kills.
I thought that an ace's score only included air to air and not ground.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Vinman.

[HILL60]

Hi there Vinman,

According to "Aces High"- by Shores and Williams, FL Gordon Troke scored: 5 and 3 shared destroyed, 1 probable, 5 damaged, 2 destroyed on the ground, 1 probable on the ground, and 2 damaged on the ground.

So yes they certainly did record their ground kills. But for ace status the required amount was still 5 or more air combat kills. Troke certainly achieved this with his 5 and 3 shared destroyed.

Pilots recorded more ground kills as the enemy became harder to find in the air later in the war and naturally it was important to record ground kills.

Cheers Hill 60.

[Vinman]

Hi
Shores total is for the war.
The score I am referring to is his score with the P40, only in the N. African campaign.
A. thomas (author of the Osprey book) has him on the list with 3 Ind + 2 Sh kills but states, on page 47, that Troke claimed 2 strafing kills, a JU 52/53 on Jan 16, 43 and a Ju88 ON Jan21, 43.
Also, according to the web site ACES OF WWll, Troke is credited with 6.25 kills + 1 damaged + 2 ground.
Here is the link: http://acesofww2.com/Canada/Canada.htm
So up until he left N. Africa, his P40 score should have been 3 kills + 2 ground and therfore not classified as a P40 Ace.
If this is the case, then why is he on the list, when 2 of the 5 kills are ground?
Vinman

[rpeck350]

I think he is counting the shares .
3 ind. + 2 shares for 5.
Ground scores were kept just like trains ,trucks and other ground targets in the pilots log but not all pilots did this.
Some British awards were given as -(example)Pilot helped destroyed 5 german aircraft while in combat with 250 Squadron.
Which makes it hard for some authors to find the truth.
The first Aces High book they had that problem with the newer edition having corrected many of these after finding more info than the pilots award Certificates.
I'm guessing he added him because some were else he is listed as 5 in P-40's and correcting it at the same time by saying 2 were shared.
Hope you understand what I'm getting at.
Rick

[Vinman]

Hi Rick,
That might very well be right. But, form what I have read in the book, it sure sounds like the 3 Ind + 2 Sh (5) does in fact include the 2 ground kills.
Anyway, thanks for the info.
Vinman.

[Graham Boak]

I fear that with such a purist view you'll be disappointed with other books in the Osprey Aces series too. For example, I've just bought the Griffon Spitfire Aces, and there are four Mk.XIIs despite Harries being the only pilot to score 5 kills with the type. Plus it contains the aircraft of such total non-achievers as Johnson, Lacey and Duncan Smith.

[Nick Beale]

I think you have to accept that the Osprey Aces series allow themselves a flexible defintion. If they didn't you sometimes wouldn't have a book at all. In the RAF, my understanding was that no official score totals were maintained (although IIRC numbers destroyed were sometimes given in press releases and award citations) and there was no formal "ace" status, so Osprey have some editorial latitude.

I buy their RAF/Commonwealth books for a compact overview of operations by the type of aircraft concerned. With a manageable topic like the Typhoon/Tempest or Griffon Spits the 96-page format works well. Personally I'm not that bothered by scores and rankings, especially when "confirmed" victories don't always hold up against the historical records now available, so Osprey can "cheat" if they like!