65 anniversary of Katyn massacre

[edwest]

There is too much killing in the world, legal and illegal. Murder, war, genocide, the common theme is all are dead. Illegal killing occurs daily, around the world. That is my point. And apparently, no one is thinking about the past, so the killing, genocide, whatever you want to call it-- the killing of humans by other humans-- continues today. Just because one tribe of humans kills another tribe to fit the description of genocide-- all are equally dead no matter how they died. And the criminals who do it, some of them, perhaps many of them, escape justice, but what are YOU going to do about it?
I want to see an end to it, the killing.


Ed

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

62 years ago Katyn was made public (on 13 IV 1943) + genocide issue.

Going back to disscution began by Franke, I have attached some useful links which all reading in English and wanting to broaden their knowledge can find much more about "Katyn".

On April 13 1943 Berlin Radio announced this find to the world: "A great pit was found, 28 metres long and 16 metres wide, filled with twelve layers of bodies of Polish officers, numbering about 3,000. They were clad in full military uniform, and while many of them had their hands tied, all of them had wounds in the back of their necks caused by pistol shots. The identification of the bodies will not cause great difficulties because of the mummifying property of the soil and because the Bolsheviks had left on the bodies the identity documents of the victims. It has already been ascertained that among the murdered is a General Smorawinski from Lublin.". This is from WIKIPEDIA.

see more going to:

Very useful source information about Katyn is WIKIPEDIA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

Very detail site about whole Karyn's" issue
http://www.mswia.gov.pl/mednoe.html

Katyn in Nuremberg
http://nobsnews.blogspot.com/1994/12/katyn-in-nuremberg.html


Genocide's issue

Thanks for correction Hawk-Eye, my speling check does not work so it looks as it looks.

I would like to explain about the case of genocide and meaning of it. This is important in WW II hitory

Genocide - if you look on this meaning as a vertical "example of killing - agains all, antion like Jews, Gypsies" you may say that Katyn was no a example of genocide as many Russian ect are just now saying. There are also on the West simple total lack of undrestanding the evil of communism (big Russia state of workers and peasants + happienes),

I see it (as many Poles) other and this is different meaning.
Any communits regime do not kill any population in "verical fashion" - as did German for example with all Jews, Gypsies, no matter age, sex, ect.

Communist's regime makes it according class principless, so if you have more the "x US Dollars", you have to be destroy as a public enemy, no matter Russian, Pole, Jews, German (all these nations) because you are from one of public enemy class (no right to live, to have property). So intelectual class was also Russian-Soviet public enemy and had to be exterminated because being more inteligent, more power class, less co-operative with Russian regime.

Among 22.000 killed Polish citisens were: Poles, Jews, Ukrainians,Bialorussian, Gerogians or other small nations who were Poles "citisents" and belong to one enemy class - intelectulas - which did want to join Red Russian. Russian could not to turn over them and they had to be mordered as a specific "stuborn class", an "obstacle" on their the road to conquer the whole country and later whole capitalist word.
As Hawk-Eye have written:
They "only" wanted to eliminate those who were educated and able to think (teachers, writers, officers, politicians, doctors etc.), and understood politics, in order not to have any trouble when integrating Poland into Russia. Besides, most of them disliked communism very much, which was a crime already in Soviet eyes."

This was a specific class to be mordered and this I can or other Poles are saying - genocide - this is cricial point of this case - "horisontal termination" - according class and nation rules.

BTW during the Great Pruges (1937-1938) Russian have even develop special category people of "Polish's plots" . From about 700.000 official killed ussin citisents in about one year there were about 125.000 Poles orgin who had stayed in Russia and live under new regime. They were shot due to their Polish origin and as a potential spy for our country. So I can right to say about Russian they they make genocide toward Poles and second toward specific class of Poles this high educated, representatives of Polish's state system.

Russian (Chines, Korean, Khmer Ruge ect) made the same genocide crime's toward own peoples. They did it in horizonal way - against classes (these who can read, write, have more as it was in Kambodia for example).

Germans had made the horrible crimes in "vertical way" the genocide - all have to be mordered as a untermench (specialy Jews, Gypsies but also Poles, Ukrainian ect.). Germans were very proud of them during the whole war, many photos made by them are evident proofs of their happiens during mordering childern, women, old people - these "rats" and untermenchen had no rigths to live on the big III Reich soil.

Regards,

Mirek W

[G. Warrener]

Poland has bad neighbours and weak friends. Katyn was a Soviet war-crime which has gone unpunished.

Both Russia (sic USSR) and Germany (sic Nazi) regarded Poles as a problem rather than a nation. Both Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany wanted to extinguish the Polish nation - Polish culture - even the langauge. Between 1939 and 1945 they did their utmost to do so. They failed. After 1945 the Soviets saw Poland only as a buffer-zone between them and NATO. Silly Soviets!

President Putin is no golden boy. Poland is stronger than President Putin. One thousand years from now people will still be speaking Polish - but hardly anyone will know who President Putin was.

But not all Russians wake up hating Poles - presumably the reverse also applies.

I have seen some pretty gruesome images from the 1920's & 1940's conflicts. Nothing changes on this earth - that's the way it is down here.

But down here is not 'omega'.........

Graham

[Mazila]

Katyn and genocide?

It was not genocide by all means, it was execution of anti-soviet representatives of capitalist classes to prevent any possible resistance on returned russian territories (which were getting back to Russia from Poland in Sept 1939 by Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty)

millions of Soviets were executed by commies for political reasons in 1917-1953.

Should we treat all what happened with Soviet people in XX century as genocide? Probably, yes.

Should we use the same definition for Katyn massacre?

No, because those poor Poles were just a small speck of dust in the universe of war for communist future of the human race. It's impossible to dedicate them from the whole bloody picture and say that killing Polish people is something extraordinary for Soviets and might be treated as something personal against Poland and Polish people.

For good commie there is no nationality, only class nature matters. All killed Poles were officers. Capitalists for soviets. That's why they were doomed.

And last but not the least:

Should Russians call genocide the killing of 100 thousand Soviet POWs in Poland in 1920-21? I have heard Poles don't like to talk about it.
And what about 1612? Was it genocide on Russian people?

Sorry, I think this anti-russian thread is stupid

[Franek Grabowski]

Ed

>There is too much killing in the world, legal and illegal.

Well, considering a major portion of deaths is caused by cars, would you scrap them all?

>Murder, war, genocide, the common theme is all are dead.

Wrong thinking. War does not necessarilly means killing. Genocide does not mean war. Why do you confuse clear and obvious definitions?

Just because one tribe of humans kills another tribe to fit the description of genocide-- all are equally dead no matter how they died.

The matter is why they died and not how they died.

>And the criminals who do it, some of them, perhaps many of them, escape justice, but what are YOU going to do about it?

So do you think imperfections of justice system justify just anything?

>I want to see an end to it, the killing.

Excellent, but tell me, why you did not protest against Auschwitz thread?

Mazila

>It was not genocide by all means, it was execution of anti-soviet representatives of capitalist classes to prevent any possible resistance on returned russian territories (which were getting back to Russia from Poland in Sept 1939 by Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty)

Read the definition of genocide. This was a genocide. Otherwise there were no Russian territories taken over by Red Army.

>millions of Soviets were executed by commies for political reasons in 1917-1953.

So you consider this a justification?

>Should we treat all what happened with Soviet people in XX century as genocide? Probably, yes.

Soviet Union was (is) a criminal state and as such should be trialed just as Germany was in Nurenberg.

>Should we use the same definition for Katyn massacre?

Yes, especially having in mind Gestapo-NKVD agreements of Zakopane meeting.

>No, because those poor Poles were just a small speck of dust in the universe of war for communist future of the human race. It's impossible to dedicate them from the whole bloody picture and say that killing Polish people is something extraordinary for Soviets and might be treated as something personal against Poland and Polish people.

Poor Russians are just a small speck of dust in the universe. Should we care about them at all?

>For good commie there is no nationality, only class nature matters. All killed Poles were officers. Capitalists for soviets. That's why they were doomed.

Most of those officers were reserve officers, ie. ordinary people who finished studies. They were doctors, engineers, teachers or lawyers.

>Should Russians call genocide the killing of 100 thousand Soviet POWs in Poland in 1920-21? I have heard Poles don't like to talk about it.

You heard it wrong, because Poland is quite open for such discussions. Your problem is that there was no genocide and the matter appeared just after Yeltsin finally admitted Soviet Union was responsible for Katyn massacre. Actually, Soviet/Russian propaganda claims are denied by Russians themselves, eg. Pavel Aptekar of Moscow, whose grandpa was in Polish PoW camp.
In turn, what had happenned to Polish PoWs, who were taken by Soviets? Why Merian Cooper (of King Kong fame) had to escape from a Soviet camp?

>And what about 1612? Was it genocide on Russian people?

How about Troy?

>Sorry, I think this anti-russian thread is stupid

No, it is not. Current Russia continues traditions of criminal Soviet Union and this is just unacceptable in civilised standards.

[edwest]

You are obsessed. Get some help.



Ed

[Ruy Horta]

And now I will close this thread, not because of the general subject, but the direction this discussion is going.