P-51s vs FW-190s on 20/1/45 N. of Regensburg

[mayfair35]

On 20/1/45, at the border of Czechoslovakia and Germany, west of Pilsen, at about 30,000 feet, my flight of 4 P-51s intercepted an estimated 40 Fw-190s, both long and short nosed. They were diving on the last group of B-17s whose target was Regensburg. We shot down four. The SLET- Pilsen Air Historical Society was kind enough to send me the names of the pilots, their units and the type of plane they flew. All died. If any one is interested in their names and unit, please advise and I will post.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi Mayfair35 ( Learjet 35 ? )
Sure! It would be nice to hear about this combat. By the way in which Fighter Group you flew? How many you got on this mission? Did you manage to find out whose pilot you shot down? ( I mean, if I were myself a fighter pilot, I would have liked to know about the whereabouts of the other side...if they had survived, if they were married, etc..We are all human beings, not machines, isn´t it? ).
I do not know about the others, but I would like to hear from you about this particular combat, specially about the Long Nosed Fw 190 D...
Cheers from Brazil ( from a former flight instructor and commercial pilot )
Adriano

[mayfair35]

Hello Adriano,
Mayfair35 was my call sign in the 317th FS, 325th FG of the 15th AF. I only got 1 victory (my 8th) on this mission. We downed a total of 4 aircraft with no losses. Yes, I know who the pilot was that I shot down as it was the only 190 A-8 destroyed. The 3 others were 190Ds. The FW-190A-8 was flown by Obfw. Heinz Brand, I/302. The others are Uffz. Josef Idstein, FW-190A-9, I/JG 301; Uffz. Gottfried Hellriegel, FW-190A-9, I/JG301; Uffz. Karl Schweger, FW-190A-9, II/JG301. This info was forwarded to me by a Czech historian who was researching this mission. The other pilot of my flight (Lt Edwards) got the 3 FW-190A-9; one at 30,000 feet the other two on the deck. We always referred to either the short-nosed FW or the long-nosed FW-190D. My references do not show a FW-190A-9 only a FW-190D-9. I was told all the German pilots died and were buried the next day in Marienbad.
I am not sure if I want to know the names of pilots I shot down as that brings it to a personal level whereas most of us liked to think it was machine against machine; not man against man.
I would be happy to give you the details of this encounter, but I am not sure if this is allowed on this site. This is my first posting, and I do not want to violate the rules. If it is against the rules, and you are interested, I can send you an E-mail with the details if you will forward your E-mail address. I am mayfair35@aol.com.
Cordially, Art Fiedler

[O.Menu]

Hi Art!

Feel free to give the details, this not only allowed but awaited on this site

NOTE: Fw 190A-9 is short nosed and it was impossible to see the difference between an A-8 and an A-9 in combat! (The A-9 was better than the A-8 at hight altitude and got armored wing leading edge and nose, if i m right) - The A-9 is not a D-9.

Welcome on board

Olivier

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Art,
Yes, I think you could share with the others your History! It would be nice and a lot of other people would enjoy reading it too...Do you know, there are many fellows here who really love this kind of history.
I contacted a long time ago, from the Mustang Association a former 325th FG veteran, but did not remember his name ( had to check out on my papers ). Yes, checkertails....beautiful machine.
I do not know how far you ventured on the net, but there is a very interesting site about JG 300, 301 and 302 at www.jg300.de. His owner is researching from a long time ago the Histories of these 3 Squadrons and is in contact with former veterans too. ( his nickname is Bobo ). Certainly there are photos of JG 301 men and machines...
Yes, I have heard that it was machine against machine...no particular feeling. It had to be that way...Fortunately for us, the new generations won´t have to face wars in a scale like that, that you fought.
Did you continue in the Air Force after the war? What was your thoughest fight? It is not everyday we talk with men like you! I am particularly honored! It is good to learn from "old eagles" like you!
May you have a nice week Art! We ( me and the other hundreds ) will be glad to hear your combat and experiences in FULL..
Friendly as ever

Adriano

[mayfair35]

Gentlemen,
I have placed an attachment which gives the details of the encounter on 20 Jan. 1945. I hope it has been done correctly. Please advise.
Cordially, Art

[Erich]

interesting Art. Yes as you mentioned it appears that indeed the brunt of JG 301 decided at moments notice to take on your fighter group. As the Fw 190D-9 Dora with II. gruppe was still a new novel idea for the gruppe it stands to some reason that they would of liked to have mixed up with your Mustangs as the craft was going to be used for high altitude interceptions of Allied fighters while the III. gruppe stayed on as a heavy formation with primary task of jumping the bombers

Looking forward to your next installment, and thank you for sharing the report.

Erich (eke)

[mayfair35]

To: O.Menu, Adriano Baumgartner, and eke

Thank you all for your most valued information and correction of my tale.

Discussion of 20 Jan 1945 Mission

It is interesting that we did not lose any P-51s on this mission. To me it is unbelievable and probably confirms the lack of adequate flying experience for many of the Luftwaffe pilots. On our part, it was a comedy of errors as the other three had never been in a fight.

My wingman, Jim Hernly, was unaware that he had lost his generator and thus all his electrical power. He was unable to use his radio, fire his guns or drop his external wing tanks. Just after I shot down the 190, Jim said he saw two 190s on his tail, and he radioed me to tighten up my turn. Of course, I did not hear him. He said that when he saw the bottom fuselages of the 190s, he realized they could pull a lead on him. Since I was not tightening up my turn, he immediately rolled over and dove for the clouds. Even with his external wing tanks on, he said his airspeed indicator read 450 mph in the dive. He came home alone.

As we made the initial pass, my element leader, Lt Edward Miller, reported that he did the same thing I did, got on the tail of a 190D, opened fire, got a number of hits, at which time the 190 went into an “uncontrolled spinning dive” (His words). He then made the normal error of someone inexperienced and followed him down (In his excitement he forgot all about the many enemy fighters above him that could have gotten on his tail). He lost the FW-190 in the clouds but when he came out below the clouds, there was another FW-190D right in front of him, and he shot it down. As he started for home, another came out of the clouds in front of him, he opened fire on it and it crash-landed. He told our intelligence that they were all FW-190Ds, which from your E-mails and the info from the Czech historians is obviously incorrect. Moreover, in fact it seems that no FW-190Ds were shot down at all??

Ed Miller’s wingman, Hansen, dropped his wing tanks on my command and made the head-on pass. As soon as he started a turn with Ed, he realized his engine was not running. He thought his engine was been hit during the head-on pass and rolled over into a dive to get away. At about 27,000 feet, he realized he had not switched to internal fuel tanks, did so, the engine restarted, and he climbed up to 37,000 feet where he said he watched the swirling mass below him. When I asked why he did not come down to help me, his reply was that he never saw me, only black crosses.

I thought it interesting that I estimated a total of 40 E/A but the other three thought there were 75! Does anyone have any idea of how many FW-190s were in this attack?

Now I would like to ask some questions about the information some have sent me.
My altimeter read 33,500 feet but I believe it must have been in error as I read that the 190A-8 service ceiling was about 32,800 feet. What is the ceiling of the FW-190A-9? How about the FW-190D? Several of my references give it the same ceiling height as the 190A model but I cannot believe that is correct. I think it must have been higher than that of the FW-190A model?

To eke: Can you explain what I or II/JG301 means. In the USAF a fighter squadron normally had 25 aircraft. Usually a group consisted of 3 squadrons; e.g. the 325th FG had the 317th, 318th, and 319th Fighter Squadrons. At maximum strength, we put up as many as 24 aircraft per squadron near the end of the war as we often had more than 25 aircraft per squadron. Our Fighter Wing was the 306th, which had four P-51 groups: the 31st FG, 52nd FG, 325th FG, and 332nd FG(This was the black group which had 4 squadrons). The 305th Fighter Wing had three P-38 fighter groups: the 1st FG, 14th FG, and 82nd FG.

When you refer to 9./JG301 or 4./JG301 are the 9 and 4 the squadron numbers? How many squadrons would there be in a JG? Is there anyway to determine the number of E/A that we encountered?

Unteroffizier Göthel of 9./JG301 went down near Dresden? Dresden was quite a distance from the site of our battle (90 miles?) so perhaps Göthel was not in our fight. When you say “by Helerau by Dresden”, does that mean the Stadt was Helerau in the Kreis Dresden? And are Helligenkreuz, Taucha, Dreihaken, and Kohau located near each other and close to the border of Germany/Czechoslovak? I cannot find any of these names, except Dresden, in my atlases. If all the 5 pilots you listed were in the group we attacked, perhaps one of my later shots was more successful than I realized. I know that except for Lt. Miller who shot at 3 aircraft and claimed them the others did not even get a shot at an E/A. I only could be positive that I got one and so claimed it. My wingman confirmed its destruction. And of course if there is any information that would correct the story as I related it by all means let me know. I do not want to relate incorrect information.

I now realize that I do not know the name of the pilot I shot down because I thought mine was the only short nose 190 shot down. Now that O.Menu pointed out that there was no way to tell the difference between a FW-190A-9 and the FW-190A-8 during a combat, and three of the downed aircraft were the A-9 model, I realize that I do not know who the pilot was of the plane I shot down. And all these years, I have been relating that we shot down 3 of the Doras. Well at least I now know the truth and thank you for giving me the correct information.

If I can answer any other questions, please let me know.

Horrido

Art Fiedler

[mayfair35]

Adriano, I apologize that I missed a couple of your previous questions so let me answer them now. No I did not stay in the Air Force after the war. Instead I went to college as I had been 18 when I enlisted and there was no opportunity to attend college. However shortly after finishing college, I was recalled for the Korean conflict and then decided to stay in the Air Force.
My toughest fight was my 4th victory. I believe it was against JG300 in which 64 FW-190s came up from the clouds, shot down seven B-17s as I was diving down to attack them. When I Yo-Yoed up for a second pass, I ran into what I thought was 1 FW (turned out there were two) about 2 or 3 thousand feet above the other Focke Wulfs. We had a furious fight to the deck where one made a mistake and paid the price. In the meantime the other one had disappeared. A few minutes later, I downed a Me-109, but it was not a difficult combat. The Focke Wulf pilots were really good and got 3 shots at me for every one I got at them.
And thank you for the info you sent about the JG 300, 301, and 302 site. I will sign on and hope it is in English. I appreciate your kindness and that of everyone else who was kind enough to assist me. Should you have any other questions, do not hesitate to ask.
Cordially, Art Fiedler

[kaki3152]

Art,

Just want to welcome you to the 12 o'Clock high Website. It is a honor and a privilege to have a 15th AF ace posting here.

One question, have you thought about writing your expereinces down? There have been several good WWII fighter biographies written in the last few years and I can see no reason why yours can't be another.

Carlos