Nice photo find - German planes captured by British Paratroopers

[veltro]

Originally Posted by bearoutwest

Ferdinando,
I don't know enough about Bf109K-6's to agree or disagree with you on your overall conclusion....except that the wing-only photo is probably placed on the test-rig upside down - so the wheel well is on the top. So the cannon or camera or whatever mounting, does protrude below the wing on an installed aircraft.

Regards,
...geoff

Geoff, just to be precise, I know that photo of the 30mm cannon "blended gondola" mock-up since it appeared fifteen years ago in the fantastic Tomas Poruba's work on the Bf 109K-4 C&M, and yes, I noticed it was upside down... my comment was relative to the fact that "that" mock-up appears to protude only below the wing, whereas the structure on the modified G-6 is clearly extending also above the wing leading edge.

That such structure could be a variation to the one shown by Poruba's photo is certainly possible, but, beyond apparent logic, I still feel that it could house something else. Silly me, of course...

[ouidjat]

Dear Ferdinando,

Not "silly you" indeed.

[bearoutwest]

Ferdinando,

Thank you - I now understand the meaning your sentence with great clarity. However, would you care to share your thoughts on why you feel the more recent "modified G-6" photos aren't a variation of the theme - as you say "... is certainly possible, but, beyond apparent logic...."

I don't have Tomas Poruba's work on the K-4. My own passing interest is in the Bf109B, C and D versions. What I do understand is that there is still much discussion on exactly how many K-6's were actually produced and used. There is also some comment on some front-line units removing the two wing mounted cannons to save weight.

I don't question your knowledge. I'm just hoping to learn and understand why you feel the more recent photos may not be cannon mounts?

Regards,
...geoff

[Harold Lake]

I can't help but wonder if this mystery Gustav is the same machine illustrated in Green's "Warplanes" in which we see it similarily armed with MK 108s but housed in underwing gondolas? Unfortunately, we lack the complete stkz and werknummer for Green's photo but have to make do with only fragments of the aircraft's stkz. To me, these two letters appear to be PH, RH or RU as these are known prefixes for the G-6.

However, in our mystery Gustav photos, I believe the last two letters besides possibly being EM, LM, EH could also be LH. In checking further, the PH prefix is unlikely since it only shows up on PH+XA to XZ, whereas the prefix RH might work since RH+LH, W.Nr. 15886, was a G-6 from this period and, the same is true for the RU prefix since RU+EH, W.Nr. 162538, was also a G-6 from this same time period.

Unfortunately, my files do not allow further possibilities. Perhaps other readers have more information?

And yes, I do too believe our mystery Gustav was, or was intended, to have wing mounted MK 108s.

Hal

[veltro]

Originally Posted by bearoutwest

I don't have Tomas Poruba's work on the K-4. My own passing interest is in the Bf109B, C and D versions. What I do understand is that there is still much discussion on exactly how many K-6's were actually produced and used. There is also some comment on some front-line units removing the two wing mounted cannons to save weight.

I don't question your knowledge. I'm just hoping to learn and understand why you feel the more recent photos may not be cannon mounts?

The existence, let alone the production of other K sub-series other than the K-4 is one of the myths that I read and heard since I was a boy (and that's long time ago, believe me...).

As a matter of fact, apart from one or two prototypes or test-beds (the wooden mock-up for the proposed in-wing installation of the 30mm cannon to be used on the K-6 falls into this category), as far as we know today the K-4 was the only Kurfürst in town.

Even the myth of the two K-14s which were said to have been operational with II./JG 52 has not been proven at all and we have only evidence of K-4 W.Nr. block production series and nothing else.

This said, I cannot prove in any way that those wing structures were not further modified experimental mounts to house MK 108 cannons, I only have a gut feeling that they were for something else, and in over 35 years or research I have learned not to plainly believe, but at least to respect my own gut...

Am I wrong? Maybe, it would not be the first time, but I cannot discard the idea that there could have been a different use to that structures. I have at first theorized cine-cameras, but it seems that the ones Luftwaffe used were ok, so why try new mounts or new cameras? (BTW, the Germans were always improving their stuff, no matter how good it was, so this objection sounds a bit weak to me, but let's accept it).

At any rate, just for the sake of discussion, I simply put forward my opinion, not pretending in any way to be right or to behold the truth.

After all, if we all should always think the same and agree, it would be a boring world, wouldn't it?

P.S. FWIW, I have found online a photo of a what-if model of a K-6 with the wing-blended 30 mm cannon modeled according to what is visible in the mock-up photo (here reversed to ease viewing) and comparing these images with the photo of our "strange" test-bed G-6... I still think that the latter is very different.

[bearoutwest]

Ferdinando,

Thank you. Discussion is always welcome.....sometimes when it's around a table in a bar/pub with a few drinks and a lot of arm waving.....it even makes more sense.

Regards,
...geoff

[Stephen M. Fochuk]

Well, it's in the same location as the mock-up so who knows, but more to the point, why on a G-6?

Maybe they were playing with an improved, slim version of the Mk-108?

[hanshauprich]

KT+UO has an "42" (yellow?) on the engine.
h.

[O.Menu]

I could be wrong but this 109G probably had an RZ-65 rakete armement for me... With exhaust on upper wing side...

[ouidjat]

Like that?

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/arch...richt/001b.jpg

I don't know why one want absolutely put that experiment "through" the wings ....