Subordinates' opinions of Hans Dortenmann;

[NickM]

Guys:

I recall from reading The JG26 War Diary that towards the end of the War, Hans Dortenmann was one officer within III/JG54 & JG26 who was still pursuing decorations & 'Glory and Honor', even given the situation with defeat imminent...I was curious if anybody under Dortenmann's command ever commented on flying with Dortenmann---obviously he was a VERY skilled pilot but at the same time his actions would put his subordinates in a LOT of unnecessary danger;

Hope this question isnt' too silly sounding;

TiA

nickm

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, it seems there is very little in regard of personal remarks on Luftwaffe characters. I have heard a story or two, but it is non existent, comparing to what we know about some Allied pilots.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Well, it seems there is very little in regard of personal remarks on Luftwaffe characters. I have heard a story or two, but it is non existent, comparing to what we know about some Allied pilots.

Franek, that sounds quite interesting...could you possibly share the anecdote?

nickm

[Franek Grabowski]

Sorry, it is not about Dortenmann.

[NickM]

That's OK...

nickm

[leonventer]

Hi Nick,

Well, it seems there is very little in regard of personal remarks on Luftwaffe characters. I have heard a story or two, but it is non existent, comparing to what we know about some Allied pilots.

Agreed, but here are a couple of resources that are worth considering:

• "Ikaros: Persönlichkeit und Wesen des deutschen Jagdfliegers im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by Paul Robert Skawran, 1969

Skawran did war-time interviews with several prominent Luftwaffe personalities. He categorizes the pilots into various character types, and describes the psychological and physical characteristics of each one in some detail.

• "Luftwaffe Efficiency & Promotion Reports, vols. 1 & 2" by French L. MacLean, 2007

MacLean's work consists of a collection of 113 promotion reports for Luftwaffe Knight's Cross winners, written by their superiors (89 of the reports are for pilots, with 58 being for fighter pilots.)
The reports tell us, for example, that:
- Hans Ehlers came "from a simple way of life"
- Anton Döbele could "be harsh and one-sided in judging people"
- Rudolf Rademacher became "somewhat disinterested and stubborn"
- Wolfgang Schenck appeared "to have lost his spirit for battle"
- Heinz Schnaufer was "somewhat shy" and "a little too soft at the front."

Each person's report features a reproduction of the original document, a short biography, and most include a photo. Also, the appendix includes short biographies of the officers who authored the promotion reports.

Hope that helps,
Leon Venter

[yogybär]

I read the famous (german) III./JG54 book "Axel Urbanke, mit Fw190 D-9 im Einsatz". I got the impression that Dortenmann was a very good and indeed notbrainless believer in "Endsieg" or such. He was critical against senseless orders and fought against the enemy as a good soldier should.

Yes, one can (and maybe should) interprete this as negative under the given circumstances. Anyway, my "feeling" after the book is that he was a very good pilot and commander. Indeed, I like the image of him I got from that book.

One example: One day, his Gruppe had very high losses due to bad orders. His Staffel got the same idiotic orders. He did not follow them, his Staffel achieved some success and had no (or verys low) losses.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by yogybär

I read the famous (german) III./JG54 book. I got the impression that Dortenmann was a very good and indeed notbrainless believer in "Endsieg" or such. He was critical against senseless orders and fought against the enemy as a good soldier should.

Yes, one can (and maybe should) interprete this as negative under the given circumstances. Anyway, my "feeling" after the book is that he was a very good pilot and commander. Indeed, I like the image of him I got from that book.

One example: One day, his Gruppe had very high losses due to bad orders. His Staffel got the same idiotic orders. He did not follow them, his Staffel achieved some success and had no (or verys low) losses.

Thanks, that's the sort of stuff I was interested in; no doubt Dortenmann was a VERY skilled pilot & kept lots of his 'team' alive by virtue of said skill & leadership....but at the same time he DID put on a BIG push to get that Knight's Cross...

nm

[F19Gladiator]

Hi Nick,
I've just re-read the book by fellow pilot Willi Heilmann, "Alert in The West" in which Dortenmann figures on many pages and in several air battles described.
I've found no remarks in the direction you indicate.

Like the comments based on Axel Urbankes's book ("Green Hearts. First in Combat With the Dora 9" in Engl. transl.) by 'Yogybär' he comes through as a very good and experienced fighter pilot and the relation to other pilots seems to be good.
He gives the impression of being a professional fighter pilot and unit leader and not a fanatic and rather despising higher Luftwaffe authority and hard core Nazis – “Der Dicke” and the OKL included.

Were did you get the impression he got the “Neck itch” chasing for a Knight's Cross? I quickly skimmed through “The JG 26 War Diary Vol 2”, Caldwell, Grub Street, 1988, and on p. 466 there is a remark:
“Oblt. Dortenmann was awarded his Knight’s Cross, to the joy and the probable relief of his 3rd Staffel pilots”

Is there any other reference supporting the view that he was chasing a Knight’s Cross?

The units he led suffered heavily, being vastly outnumbered in many air battles, but so were also other Staffeln in 1944/45 over the Western Front.
He gives me the impression of trying to achieve results but find no indication he is sacrificing his wingmen or Staffel members for a victory. From time to time rather being upset over the high losses inflicted on his unit because of the in his mind stupid decisions by the Lw headquarter staff handed down to unit level.

In the carnage in the West where a new pilot was lucky if he survived 10 missions I can imagine that some, or several, young pilots found it nerve-racking to be led into murderous air fights by their Staffel (later Gruppe) leader and taking terrible beatings day after day, concluding that the leader’s only motivation can have been a Knight’s Cross as it must have been obvious to all that at this point the war could never have been won by the Germans – So why keep on attacking until a sure death or injury came to you? Because the boss wanted a “Gong”!
I don’t know if that was the case – Only an alternative explanation and pure speculation from my end.

Cheers
Göran

[advsmt]

Sorry, could not resist posting a signed picture of Dortenmann. This one came from Obermaier - the one in his jagflieger book.

Brian