Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 5th October 2005, 01:15
Boris Ciglic's Avatar
Boris Ciglic Boris Ciglic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alba Grecca
Posts: 333
Boris Ciglic is on a distinguished road
Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

This is a question wich certainly bothers all of us who had a chance to go through these documents but couldnt find a match for which they were certain it exists. Leaving aside the lack of documents for the 1944 and part of 1945, I would like to know what do you think how complete are the lists which survived. On many ocassions I came upon cases of certain aircraft losses which could not be verified through GQM lists although there were casaulties and even W.Nr. provided in other documents. I understand that some losses from 1943, especially the second half of that year could have been reported by GQM in 1944 bu there are numerous cases in earlier years, to name but a few:

6.4.41. I have a photo of crash landed Do 17Z, this loss does not correspond with the lost Do 17Z of 8./KG 3 which was the only Do 17Z reported as lost over Yugoslavia on that date
4.7.41. Ju 88 4N+EH W.Nr.800 went missing in Yugoslavia, crew Lt.Adam, Ofw.Will, Ofw.Teupe and Uffz.Olterbach
18.7.41. Fi 156 crashed at Zemun airdrome and burst into flame, Gen. Ludwig von Schröder died of wounds 27.7.41.
29.8.41. Do 17E of GKFS.5 force landed in shallow water into the sea with landing gear up, next to the Greifswald airdrome
30.9.41. Fw 58 crash landed at auxiliary airfield near Cacak, Serbia, and was subsequently set afire by its crew

From my experience, I suppose that at least 5% and at times up to 10% of actual losses have not been included in GQM lists, and this I mean 60%-100% losses, not damaged aircraft which could be repaired in the field. I exclude any possibility of it being deliberately done at any level to hide own losses, but just think that this happened because of the size of the area over which Luftwaffe operated, bad communications, pure size of the paperwork received every day and human factor.

Opinion?

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 5th October 2005, 02:19
ArtieBob ArtieBob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sharps Chapel, TN USA
Posts: 442
ArtieBob will become famous soon enough
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

First, there are two major loss lists. The combat unit loss KG, JG, ZG, etc. are in "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Verbänden" originating from Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. etc. The other major list is the "Tägliche Verlustmeldung Schulen usw." which cover school units and a wide variety, literally hundreds of non-combat LW aircraft operators. So, first you need to determine what kind of unit operated the aircraft or search both units. Since the losses are not listed in pure chronological sequence, but rather when the report was received at the compiling location, you may have to search a nunber of dates to ensure you have covered all the entries that might be related to your interest. Occasinally the reports may be months after the actual loss date, although this the exceptin, it is more likely days or weeks. Of course, there are also the losses that somehow fell in the cracks and were missed completely, but up to 1945, I think these were a small percentage. There is still another category and that is damage or loss at the factories before acceptance as a result of either accident , bombing or strafing damage. In addition to the major lists, there are lower level lists from individual units or at a luftflotte level or reports from salvage units of aircraft recovered. If all these are put together the loss information, even for 1944 can probably be constructed pretty well, although it certainly would be nice to find it all in one place.

Best regards,

Artie Bob
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 5th October 2005, 03:27
George Hopp's Avatar
George Hopp George Hopp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa, CA
Posts: 830
George Hopp
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

You might note that occasionally corrections were made to the "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Verbänden" originating from Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. etc., days and even weeks after the original entry. So, look at later entries, and you might see a change of all manner of data, including the date of the incident.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 5th October 2005, 03:59
ArtieBob ArtieBob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sharps Chapel, TN USA
Posts: 442
ArtieBob will become famous soon enough
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

Ju 88 4N+EH is in the Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt loss list with a date of 4.7.41. The Do 17E of GKFS.5 would be in "Tägliche Verlustmeldung Schulen usw." There is not enough information to tell about the other examples you have listed.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 5th October 2005, 12:27
Boris Ciglic's Avatar
Boris Ciglic Boris Ciglic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alba Grecca
Posts: 333
Boris Ciglic is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

"Ju 88 4N+EH is in the Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt loss list with a date of 4.7.41. The Do 17E of GKFS.5 would be in "Tägliche Verlustmeldung Schulen usw." There is not enough information to tell about the other examples you have listed."

Ju 88 - well, speaking about a human factor! I obviously missed it!
Do 17E of GKFS.5 - I lost few days on microfiche trying to find that exact aircraft but I didn't. I have a war diary of Croat unit whose pilots were there at training at the time and the event is described in detail. I dont believe plane which force-landed in water with undercarriage up could have been damaged less than 10% and thus not reported.
Do 17Z on 6 April 41 - I have a photo of cras-landed aircraft with Yugoslav soldiers guarding it in sunny day. The next sunny day in Balkanfeldzug was on 13 April and by then KG 2 and KG 3 were already operating over Greece.
Fi 156 and Fw 58 - both aircraft belonged to Fl.Ber.Kdo.Serbien and source of information is NAW T-501/Reel 246.

"You might note that occasionally corrections were made to the "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Verbänden" originating from Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. etc., days and even weeks after the original entry. So, look at later entries, and you might see a change of all manner of data, including the date of the incident."

I'm quite aware of that. A good example could be Lt. Willi Kothmann: on 8 April 41 he was reported missing over Yugoslavia in Bf 109E on 6 April 41; on 11 April 41 it was reported that he was actually wounded; on 11.2.42. it was reported he actually returned to base without any injuries or damage to plane!?

"First, there are two major loss lists. The combat unit loss KG, JG, ZG, etc. are in "Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Verbänden" originating from Genst.Gen.Qu.Abt. etc. The other major list is the "Tägliche Verlustmeldung Schulen usw." which cover school units and a wide variety, literally hundreds of non-combat LW aircraft operators."

I am well aware of all of this, indeed I bought both sets of these documents on microfiche few years ago and spent months in going through them.

"In addition to the major lists, there are lower level lists from individual units or at a luftflotte level or reports from salvage units of aircraft recovered. If all these are put together the loss information, even for 1944 can probably be constructed pretty well, although it certainly would be nice to find it all in one place."

I agree completely, its just the question how complete major lists are. There were some quite tough debates here and I got the impression that secondary sources have been ignored or missed completely on many ocassions.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 5th October 2005, 12:35
RT RT is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 3,630
RT is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

I checked none of these losses are with the "schulen" list

sure of the dates ??, maybe we could try with wn...

rt
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 5th October 2005, 14:55
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,968
Jim P. will become famous soon enough
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

Do 17Z, 2563, Neuwirth, Uffz. Hans-Werner, , 8., KG 3, , 5K+DS, , , 06-Apr-41, MIA due to enemy fire. 2 others MIA, 1 KIA., , Yugoslavia, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4, , Belgrad, 100%, F
Do 17Z, 2575, Hertel, Uffz. Georg, , 8., KG 3, , 5K+GS, , , 06-Apr-41, WIA due to enemy fire., , Yugoslavia, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.4, , Belgrad, b, F
Ju 88D-2, 0800, Adams, Ltn. Gerhard, , 1.(F), 22, wei§ E, 4N+EH, , , 05-Jul-41, KIA, cause unknown. 2 others KIA, 1 MIA., , Ostfront, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #3)-Vol.5, , (Ostrow-Pskow-Luga), 100%, F

One of the 'missing' losses that I recall was of a Stuka from St.G. 1 during the campaign for Crete. The pilot literally paddled around the Med. for two days before being rescued. Later won the RK. May have been Joswig.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 5th October 2005, 17:41
ArtieBob ArtieBob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sharps Chapel, TN USA
Posts: 442
ArtieBob will become famous soon enough
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

Perhaps I should have asked if you have converted the lists to a data format. If you have not, then your probability of "losing" a particular a/c and date are greatly increased. I have spent many hour decipering some of the really poor quality images for some of the lists, it is really easy to miss things. Note that Jim P and I both came up with some of your missing a/c very quickly. My spread sheet is only for certain types, primarily Ju 88 (with a lot of help from Jim P and others), Jim P has a real data base with everything. It take a lot of effort to do it, but in the end, it really helps.

Best regards,

Artie Bob
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 5th October 2005, 18:41
Norbert Schuchbauer's Avatar
Norbert Schuchbauer Norbert Schuchbauer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Orangevale, California
Posts: 687
Norbert Schuchbauer
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

I totally agree with Artie Bob. I've been working with those reports for many years now but without transfereing the data you will be at an disadvantage trying to find things. It will take more time but it is well worth it. Don't forget to note the source microfilm or fiche when you do the transfer should you ever need to go back because there is a Berichtigung or Ergänzung to an entry that may date back one year or more.

Regards,

Norbert
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 5th October 2005, 21:54
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hungary
Posts: 1,875
Dénes Bernád will become famous soon enough
Re: Luftwaffe GQM loss list experiences

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtieBob
There is still another category and that is damage or loss at the factories before acceptance as a result of either accident , bombing or strafing damage.
Could you give us some details on these listings, please? Are they organized according to factories, companies, or aircraft type? Are all years covered? Did someone digitize these lists?
It would be v. important for me.
Thanks,
__________________
Dénes
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Luftwaffe Technical documents list edwest Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 14th August 2005 06:13
Luftwaffe Officer list? John Beaman Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 11th July 2005 21:17
Luftwaffe loss 15.08.1942 Melvin Brownless Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 1st July 2005 20:17
List of Luftwaffe unit war diaries in archives? Kari Lumppio Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 20th April 2005 02:05
Polish and Soviet Loss List Mabalu Allied and Soviet Air Forces 1 28th March 2005 16:41


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net