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Old 20th January 2020, 16:33
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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9./JG 53 - 17 September 1940

Gents
In the evening mission 9./JG 53 lost two Me 109 over Thames Estuary (Or was it the Channel?). Does anyone know, how many aircraft actually took off for the mission?
TIA
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Old 20th January 2020, 16:36
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Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
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Re: 9./JG 53 - 17 September 1940

9./JG 53 lost 3 ac one which Langer's came down on land and it is assumed the Stoll and Seliger collided when bounced and went down into the eastern Thames Estuary. Could not tell you how many ac took part
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Old 20th January 2020, 18:17
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: 9./JG 53 - 17 September 1940

Thanks.
Forgot about Langer. You certainly mean F/O Boyle's claim, but it took part SE Dover, so hardly over Thames Estuary. It does not look like the group encounered by P/O Bennions.
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Old 20th January 2020, 18:37
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
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Re: 9./JG 53 - 17 September 1940

All three losses took place in the same mission, with Langer going down at 16.40 hrs over Dunkirk near Faversham, whereas Stoll and Seliger were last seen at 16.50 hrs in the area of Ashford, believed to have come down over the Thames estuary.

Unfortunately I cannot provide information concerning the exact number of III./JG53 a/c involved in this mission.

KR

Jochen Prien
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Old 20th January 2020, 19:38
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Franek Grabowski
Re: 9./JG 53 - 17 September 1940

Thank you. There was only one claim for two Me 109s over the Thames Estuary at 16:00 (17:00 CET), so it would certainly match, but I would like to exclude any other possibilites.
According to P/O Bennions, most likely victor of Langer, he fought against five Me 109s. Seems plausible for a Staffel, though certainly weak.
I wonder if the collission seen by F/O Boyle off Dover could have been aircraft of Stab II/JG 53, which returned damaged. Plenty of possibilities, though.
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Old 20th January 2020, 22:50
Heuser Heuser is offline
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Re: 9./JG 53 - 17 September 1940

Neither the war diary of III./JG 53 nor the one from Hptm. Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke mentions the number of a/c on this mission.


According to first source, III./JG 53 was in combat with a "far superior enemy", identified as 25 Spitfires and 7 Hurricanes.


The Namentliche Verlustmeldung adds 16.50 hrs for all three losses and the area between Cambridge and Ashford as location.


Regarding the two damaged 109 of Stab/II. JG 53, the GQM returns gives "Feindbeschuss" as reason for both - so nothing about a possible collision in this source.


Regards,


Heuser
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Old 20th January 2020, 23:34
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: 9./JG 53 - 17 September 1940

Hi
Thanks.
The are must be Tonbridge-Ashford or Canterbury-Ashford. Indeed there were combats in the area against numerous RAF squadrons, also involving II/JG 27. There are no matching RAF claims, however.

Where from the information on the loss over Thames Estuary originates then? Or is it a post-war assumption, based on fact that no wreck was found?
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