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  #21  
Old 15th August 2006, 22:07
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken
Hi, Nick

So - what you are saying is that the headings of virtually all the documents in the HW 5 files are to be discarded…
Not discarded but (I believe, anyway) understood as a "human" analogy for a "signals" reality so that "in a file marked Luftflotte 2" means "in a signal from Luftlotte 2" and "smudge" means "reception unclear."

Quote:
I am also confused as to how the codes were solved if the transmissions were incomplete (as hundreds of these mesages imply that parts are missing...)
I guess that incomplete transmissions are just a function of the radio equipment then available and the range over which some of it was picked up. Also, I don't know if more Germans were transmitting than British people were listening!

I'm not sure of the process to get back into an interrupted message. You would have the daily key and the individual message setting but I'm not sure what you did from there: test a few thousand possibilities? However there was an upper limit on transmission length after which you broke the message into two or more parts, so maybe they just missed a whole part sometimes?

Quote:
I am also the curious to why the British are constantly misidentifying units (especielly when regarding roman vs arabic numbering), as the germans usually (have been through more original german messages than I would like to remember...) used the designation röm for roman in their messaging. Did the codebreakers miss that??
I am familiar with «ROEM. EINS JG 2» and so on in German signals and sometimes that appears in the decrypts but elsewhere the analysts comment on an "obvious mistake" by the sender. Many senders seem to think that NSG 1 and NSG 2 were Geschwader, for example, rather than Gruppen. Also, by late 1944, the Germans aren't using plain language in their original messages. In 1944–45 they started using invented words to denote units or classes of unit: GAMOZ for Luftwaffenkommando West, GAMPY for Luftflotte 4; GEKEM for a Jagdkorps, GEPAX for a Flak Division, GAUTA for a Chief of Staff; GEKAT IX is IX. Fliegerkorps. I keep finding new examples down to Staffel level.

Quote:
Does an archive that contain the decrypts as they really looked exist?
Material HW1 is as close to the original as I know but the story is that most of the material was burned in about 1946 to preserve the secret. I would like to have had the "German Books" reference volumes compiled about people, units and airfields etc. from information in the decrypts.

Quote:
As I know that Norwegians were using radio transmissions to send information to the allies during the war, could someone then please relay information here on where that intelligence material are in the archives?
I would imagine that MI6 or SOE would have had these. AFAIK the files of SOE have been released but (and this is true!) it's only about 10 years since Britain even officially admitted to having a Secret Service. Some files have now been released I think but I don't know if they have reached 1939–45 yet.

Andreas[/quote]

P.S. it was interesting to see your material from 1940–41. They had changed the presentation a lot by 1944–45 (which I have been working on).
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  #22  
Old 15th August 2006, 22:07
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Hi Andreas,

from looking at the JPEGs, IMHO, all of the information could be explained as being from Enigma signals - operational orders/operational reports etc.

I will endeavour to post an example of a message in its original format (i.e. full text) as these exist in HW 1.

I completely agree with Nick as it is illogical that humint would go through Bletchley Park.

The reason why some unit IDs are wrong is probably because the Enigma transmissions weren't fully in cleartext. References to sender/recipient and units were coded and these had to be decoded even once the Enigma message was decyphered. As an example,

NABBE 4 = NJG 4
NABCI = I./NJG 4
BABUC = III./NJG 4
GENRO 3 = 3 Jagd Division
GEDNA = Luftflotte Reich

Cheers

Rod
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  #23  
Old 17th August 2006, 00:52
Pierre Renier Pierre Renier is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Hi Andreas

Some years ago now I wrote an article for a local history publication in which I used material from HW5/2 and HW5/3, calling the article "Red Enigma, Boniface and the Y service - events of 27th June to 1st July 1940", in Channel Islands Occupation Review No.28, p31-41.

Red because this was the name used by BP for the first Luftwaffe enigma codes broken. These messages had a very selective distribution in Whitehall, and as the Admiralty at the time was the most closely tied with BP they insisted this had to be in a undisguised form. Problems arose because the material passed on to Military Intelligence and Air Intelligence went via the SIS who to protect sources said it originated from an agent called Boniface. From both MI and AI's perspective this meant it was a Humint source and not as was the reality Sigint, so accordingly was not given the full benefit of being highly reliable intel. Later on the true value of the "source" was properly appreciated and this led to the material being more clearly labelled with the CX indicator.

I hope this reads clearly and helps explain why being air material it refers to sources, but with the added rider of being CX material, i.e. Luftwaffe Enigma.

Kind regards
Pierre
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  #24  
Old 17th August 2006, 10:03
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Hi, Pierre

Thanks a lot for the information. Important that this discussion brought a clarification about the origin of this material.

Not strange then that they had to stop making the summaries - must have kept a couple of typists busy just with inventing where the stuff should be labeled as coming from! (It's a joke!!)

I know that Bletchley Park (at least it says so in written sources) never were 'found out' by the germans, how much of this stuff seeped back from other sources that saw it? Anyone got an idea about that?

Regards,
Andreas
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  #25  
Old 22nd August 2006, 01:01
Dennis Peschier Dennis Peschier is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

There seem to be a lot of N.A. research buffs involved in this discussion and I wonder if they can help me with the following; in “Sea Eagles” by Francis L. Marshall the author frequently refers to the British radio interception Service A.I.4. The book gives no source for this information but I think this must be the National Archive in Kew.
One of the things I would be interested in would be the intercepts of Luftwaffe night fighter radio communications for 8/9-3-1945.
I wanted to ask if anyone of you has com across these intercepts an knows in what folder they are stored?

Thanks in advance,

Dennis
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  #26  
Old 22nd August 2006, 04:22
RodM RodM is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Hi Dennis,

I have never seen the original intercept logs at TNA so I don't now believe that the raw data exists. However, there are a range of reports compiled from the raw data -

1. In AIR 14/3745 - Interception & Tactics Col. VIII (these are typically several pages long and contain a route map).

2. In AIR 40/2370 - Bomber Command: signals intelligence and radio countermeasures reports (these are typically two pages of text and one large map)

3. AIR 22/503 - Air Ministry W/T Intelligence Service Daily Summaries: nos. 1948-2076 Vol.28 (these are several pages long, covering a 24 hour period. The last 1-2 pages covers reaction to night raids)

Cheers

Rod
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  #27  
Old 22nd August 2006, 12:22
Dennis Peschier Dennis Peschier is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Hello Rod,

Thanks for the tips!

The reason for asking is that Marshalls information is rather detailed i.e. for Sunday September 26 1943:
Several patrols undertaken by Jasta Hegoland were heard by the British radio interception Service A.I.5 Some time after one o’clock in the afternoon four fighters set off from Hegoland on a patrol, apparently for convoy protection. Later, at 16.25 hours, three more aircraft set out, followed twenty minutes later by a single Bf 109T.
I will be in the NA next month, and will follow your leads,

Thanks,

Dennis
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  #28  
Old 22nd August 2006, 16:34
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Dennis
I have checked AIR 22/503 - Air Ministry W/T Intelligence Service Daily Summaries: nos. 1948-2076 Vol.28 (these are several pages long, covering a 24 hour period. The last 1-2 pages covers reaction to night raids) and it is probably the file you are looking for.
What is inside? A variety of information, unfortunatelly not quoted verbatim. Comparing to the intensity of combats (I was interested in Normandy), there is very little and often not very detailed. Sometimes there are gems, like 'at 20.13 a German formation believed to be JG27 took part in combat. One pilot heard to be on fire.', but usually it only an information about activity in general.
Nonetheless, if only possible, have a look at the file, it is definetelly worth of it.
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  #29  
Old 22nd August 2006, 16:47
Dennis Peschier Dennis Peschier is offline
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Wink Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Hello Franek,

Thanks for the tips. One can find the jackpot, or things one is not looking for, but are bloody interesting just the same.
I just hope I can stick to my search plan and not wonder of.

Thanks again,

Dennis
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  #30  
Old 22nd August 2006, 23:17
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Re: Luftwaffe Personnel spying for Allies?

Another file:

AIR40/2375: "GAF Fighter Activity on the Western Front – April Ops 1945"

This all seems to be based on radio traffic to and from night fighters.
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