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  #1  
Old 12th December 2020, 21:19
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Good afternoon,

From Manfred Jurleit, Strahljäger Me 262 Die Technikgeschichte, (1992), pp. 176-177:

"...Ende Februar 1945 wurde die 2. Me 262 V-2 (V-056) nach Oberpfaffenhofen zum Industriekommando 'Charlotte' überführt und dort mit dem FuG 'Neuling' IFF zusätzlich ausgerüstet. Hier wurde auch Eine Me 262 B-1a/U-1 erprobt. Sie ging allerdings im März 1945 verloren. Während eines Nachtfluges mit Hauptmann Sorge am Steuerknüppel fand dieser sein Funkfeuer nicht, obwohl die Kraftstoffanzeige bereits aufleuchtete. Sorge geriet in Panik und verließ die Maschine am Schirm."

From Manfred Jurleit, Strahljäger Me 262 Im Einsatz, (1995), p. 172:

"110307 W 10./NJG 11 Rote 4 Me 262 B-1a/U1, mit MK 108 und zusätzl. 2 x MG 151/20 Schrage Musik. Absturz März 1945."

Is anything more known about this(these) loss(losses) and the "Hauptmann Sorge"?

Thank you,

Jim
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  #2  
Old 13th December 2020, 21:32
EduardosNormalos EduardosNormalos is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Hi Jim,

This a very interesting subject. It is known, that B&V Wenzendorf converted a total of 3 B-1a -airframes and DLH Staaken a total of 5 B-1a -airframes into B-1a/U1s. As to my best understanding, these completed Me262B-1a/U1 -airframes were as follows:

Code: - Red 8 (second)
W.Nr. - 110305
Converted by: - B&V Wenzendorf
Existence confirmed by: - Still in Museum at Johannesburg
Ferried to NJG 11: - 31.3.1945 (?)
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 7 by Altner
All clear.

Code: - Red 9 (some sources claim Red 6, but Altner's flugbuch entries leave no other a/c to be Red 9)
W.Nr. - 110306
Converted by: - B&V Wenzendorf
Existence confirmed by: - Post-War Photos
Ferried to NJG 11: - 24-26.3.1945 (not sure which of the days)
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 27 by Altner
All clear.

Code: - Red 4
W.Nr. - 110307
Converted by: - B&V Wenzendorf
Existence confirmed by: - Jurleit -book
Ferried to NJG 11: - 3.1945 (?)
Last confirmed date: - lost 3.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - none
Delivery date not known.

Code: - Red 11
W.Nr. - 110378
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: - loss list of flugplatz Lubeck-Blankensee, Me262 Production Log
Ferried to NJG 11: - 7.4.1945
Last confirmed date: - 13.4.1945 (100% destroyed in a bombing raid, by collapsed hangar)
Known flights in flughbucher: - the ferry flight between Staaken and Lubeck
All clear.

Code: - Red 10
W.Nr. - 110635
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: - Post-War Photos, Me262 Production Log,
Ferried to NJG 11: - 30.3.1945
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 2 at DLH Staaken Werk
All clear.

Code: - Red 12 (first)
W.Nr. - 110636
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: - flugbuch of Herbert Altner
Ferried to NJG 11: - 26.3.1945
Last confirmed date: - 27.3.1945 (Altner pulled the throttles down too fast and both engines flamed out. Plane stalled and crashed, radar/radio-operator was killed after hitting the vertical tail.)
Known flights in flughbucher: - 2 at DLH Staaken Werk + 21 by Altner
All clear.

Code: - Red 08 (first?)
W.Nr. - 110979
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: test flights on 19.3, 23.3. and 24.3.1945
Ferried to NJG 11: - 26.3.1945 Altner and Lommatsch flew a Si204 into Staaken to ferry this a/c to Burg.
Last confirmed date: - 31.3.1945 (lost after this date)
Known flights in flughbucher: - 5 at DLH Staaken Werk
Lost before delivery to NJG11.

Code: - Red 12 (second)
W.Nr. - 111980
Converted by: - DLH Staaken
Existence confirmed by: Post-War Photos, Me262 Production Log, flugbuch of Herbert Altner
Ferried to NJG 11: - 15.4.1945
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
Known flights in flughbucher: - 1 by Welter + 2 by Altner
All clear.

All corrections and additions are most welcome!

Best Regards,
Juha

Last edited by EduardosNormalos; 17th December 2020 at 20:36.
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Old 14th December 2020, 13:00
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Hello Juha,

First, as far as I know, Me 262 B-1a/U1 W.Nrs. 110305, 110306, 110635 and 111980 were captured by the British at Schleswig-Jägel on 6 May 1945.

Second, I too noticed Altner's entry of "12" in his flugbuch for the aircraft lost on 27 March 1945. This entry can be found in the excerpt page in Andeas Zapf, Mosquitos über Berlin ..., (2018), p. 577. I should mention that I have reservations about this flugbuch as the entries for his flights seem to have been added later from memory without times and the kennzeichen even later. Mr. Zapf, a conscientious researcher, on pp. 510-511 ascribes WNr. 110636 as the loss that day without mentioning a kennzeichen.

best regards,

Jim
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Old 14th December 2020, 13:20
Richard Aigner Richard Aigner is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Schrage Musik on a Me 262? Any idea where they found room for that?
best regards,
Richard
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Old 14th December 2020, 13:29
AndyMa AndyMa is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Juha,
Just to confirm, are you saying that the assertion by Jurleit that 110307 was a B-1a/U1 is incorrect?
Andy
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Old 14th December 2020, 15:04
EduardosNormalos EduardosNormalos is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Hi all,

Andy: not sure of 110307, need to check if I find it from NJG 11 one-seaters list. However, interesting is, that the W.Nr. is just after 110305 and 110306, which both are known B-1a/U1 -conversions.

Jim: sorry for the capture -location, my bad. It came from the loss location of Red 11 as a copy. You are absolutely right here. I will amend my original post.

BR, Juha
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Old 14th December 2020, 16:53
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Aigner View Post
Schrage Musik on a Me 262? Any idea where they found room for that?
best regards,
Richard
Hi Richard,

I found this in reference to the proposed standard Me 262 B-2a Night Fighter in Smith & Creek, Me 262 Volume Three, (2000), p. 499:

"... A more practical proposal was to reduce the forward-firing MK 108s to two (with 160 rounds) and mount an upward firing MK 108 on either side of the radar operator in a Schräge Musik installation."

Jim
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Old 14th December 2020, 19:15
EduardosNormalos EduardosNormalos is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Hi all,

Yes, the 110307 was also a two-seater. This a/c was the third one converted by B&V. All the three B&V conversions had the 2x MG151/20 "Schräge Musik" -installation.

I will amend my initial posting again.

BR, Juha
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Old 14th December 2020, 20:27
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Quote:
Originally Posted by EduardosNormalos View Post
Code: - Red 09
W.Nr. - 110306
Converted by: - B&V Wenzendorf
Existence confirmed by: - Post-War Photos
Ferried to NJG 11: - 24-26.3.1945 (not sure which of the days)
Last confirmed date: - captured at Schleswig-Jägel on 6.5.1945
All clear.

Yes, the 110307 was also a two-seater. This a/c was the third one converted by B&V. All the three B&V conversions had the 2x MG151/20 "Schräge Musik" -installation.

I will amend my initial posting again.

BR, Juha

Hi, I'm a bit confused. Is this photo of "306" W.Nr.110306?
I don't see a Red 9 or Schräge Musik.


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Old 14th December 2020, 21:06
EduardosNormalos EduardosNormalos is offline
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Re: Loss(es) of Me 262 B-1a/U1 in March 1945

Hi,

Yes, this is 110306.

As for the code number, some sources state "Red 06", some sources state "Red 09". I don't recall seeing a definite photo to prove either way. (As for the sources, for eaxmple; Phil Butler's "War Prizes" states "Red 06", while Classic's four volume Me 262 series states "Red 09".) Can anyone prove one of these as solid fact?

As for the dual MG151/20 "Schräge Musik" -installation Dan O'Connell's "The Me 262 Production Log" indicates the 110307 as having the "experimental" MG151/20 "Schräge Musik" -installed and 110306 having "a dual MG151/20 -installed." The latter might also refer to the forward firing arrangement, or the obligue guns were later removed. Cannot confirm this either.

I most interested in trying to build a picture of all the B-1/U1s intended to be operated by 10./NJG 11. And as I wrote earlier, all additions and corrections are most welcome.

BR, Juha
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