KG53 losses on 23.10.41

[Thomas H]

In John Weal's book "He 111 Kampfgeschwader on the Russian front" I read that KG53 lost 5 machines on the 23.10.1941. One from II./KG53 and four from III./KG53. among them were the Staka's on 7. and 9. Staffel.

If I check the KG53 loss list in Heinz Kiehl's book I find for the 7.Staffel that Staka Oblt. Oswald Gäbler got MIA that day. for the 9. Staffel I do not find any losses at all that day. If I check the Staka list, Hptm. Pockrandt should have been the Staka at that time. Was he maybe just shortly MIA?

Could someone provide me with the reported KG53 losses that day?

Thanks in advance!

Regards, Thomas

[Rottler]

Hello Thomas,

in the Gen.Qu. loss reports from 29 October 1941 are listed five KG 53 losses on 23 October 1941, two from II./KG 53 and three from III./KG 53.
Some codes are indistinct.
6./KG 53 He 111 H-6 4248 A1+IP Besatzung Heinrich Wittkamp
6./KG 53 He 111 H-6 4243 A1+FP Besatzung Max Franke
7./KG 53 He 111 H-6 4285 A1+KR Besatzung Gustav Bode
7./KG 53 He 111 H-6 2484 A1+CR Besatzung Oblt Oswald Gäbler
8./KG 53 He 111 H-6 4477 A1+HS Besatzung Lt Georg Gade.

Regards
Leo

[Thomas H]

Hi Leo,

Thank you for your reply.

Weal mentions four losses for III./Gruppe. Does the report mention a loss around that date that could fit in?

Does the report normally just makes note of the loss of an airplane or also would mention when it concerns a Staka?

Regards, Thomas

Ps. Max Franke survived the war.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thomas

Don't know which book you have by Kiehl, but the one I have gives the following losses (human only, not aircraft)

6./KG 53: Uffz Heinz Wittkamp (plus four crew) KIA
7./KG 53: Uffz Hermann Puschmann (BS in an unknown crew) MIA
8./KG 53: Lt Georg Gade (plus four crew) MIA
7./KG 53: Lt Reinhold Puschmann (plus three crew) MIA
7./KG 53: Oblt Oswald Gäbler (plus four crew) MIA
7./KG 53: Fw Gustav Bode (plus two crew) MIA

Leo
Can you please elaborate a little bit further on the above losses compared to your own list? It seems like Max Franke (with crew) all made it back safely at least to their own lines.
I am puzzled with regard to so 'many' Puschmanns and the lack of Reinhold in your list.

B Rgds
Stig

[Stig Jarlevik]

Leo

While you are it, WNr 2484 was no H-6 but a P-1 version.
I can only assume you had a bit of finger trouble and what you wanted to write was WNr 4284 (or something.... ).
Can you please check that as well?

Cheers
Stig

[Thomas H]

Hi Stig,

We have the same book by Kiehl, he wrote only one. His loss list is not always correct and does not group the men per crew.

If the crew of FF Bode for example has 3 MIA, then two should have made it back to their lines.

Hermann Puschmann got MIA on 22.10.1941. So four made it back?!

Kiehl list is ok for a quick scan but often leaves you with questions. So when Weal writes that the Staka of 9. Staffel got lost and it is not in Kiehl his list I wonder what the story could be concerning the (temporarily) loss of a Staka?

Of those He111 that did not make it back to their lines the men are only reported by Kiehl when they stayed missing. For example, Staka Trüber and Staka Spellig both 6. Staffel were MIA. Trüber for 7/8 days. Spellig for less than 24hours. There most be reports on these events somewhere.

Regards, Thomas

[Rottler]

Hello Stig,

I had no finger trouble, I have only quoted an incorrect entry in the Gen.Qu. loss report. You are right, the WNr. 2484 was a He 111 P-1 from the block 2458-2504 built by EHF.

In the Gen.Qu. loss report from 27 October 1942 is listed:

22.10 III./KG 53 Feindflug Ort: Unbekannt Ursache: Unbekannt
He 111 H-6 4369 A1+IR (R = 7. Staffel) 100%
F Lt Reinhard Puschmann vermisst
Bf Ofw Werner Zath vermisst
Bf Uffz Helmut Klos vermisst
Bm Uffz Hermann Puschmann vermisst
Bs Uffz Luis Hummel vermisst.
Misspellings are possible, I have no NVM.

I'll elaborate the losses from 23 October later.

Regards
Leo

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thomas

I have no way of knowing how accurate Kiehl is/was. His book is after all some 35 years old by now.

From where I sit, he at least seems to have tried to group the crews together.
Obviously he was not successful all the time, such as in the case of the unfortunate BS Puschmann whom I faultily mentioned in the present context)
The man I ment was actually Uffz Alfred Willnauer, also a BS in 7./KG 53 who was lost seemingly alone on the 23rd. I guess I was so confused by two Puschmanns that I lost track of the date...

Leo
Thanks for checking, and especially for clearing up the Puschmann mystery for me. Very much appreciated!!
Also since you are then quite innocent regarding the WNr 2484 it looks like GQM is the culprit since I doubt KG 53 would operate a frontline P-1 in late 1941. Would you or anyone else venture a guess and say that WNr 4284 is a good bet for the Gäbler crew?

B Rgds
Stig

[Rottler]

Hello Stig,

the WNr. 2484 in the loss list is a typo, 4284 is entirely possible.

Now some details about the crews:

He 111 H-6 4248 A1+IP 100%
F Uffz Heinrich Wittkamp dead
B Fw Max Zieselsberger dead
Bf Uffz Xaver Böck dead
Bm Gefr Klaus Betasch dead
Bs Gefr Helmut Häusler dead

He 111 H-6 4477 A1+HS 100%
F Lt Georg Gade vermisst
B Gefr Edwin Wagner vermisst
Bf Uffz Hans Braumlich vermisst
Bm Fw Paul Hagedorn vermisst
Bs Uffz Hugo Röllig vermisst

He 111 H-6 4285 A1+KR 100%
F Fw Gustav Bode vermisst
B Uffz Josef Rommel vermisst
Bf Uffz Kurt Richte vermisst
Bm Fw Georg Geltinger verletzt zurück
Bs Uffz Alfred Wilnauer vermisst

He 111 H-6 2484 (typo) A1+CR 100%
F Oblt Oswald Gäbler vermisst
B Uffz Heinrich Rudolph vermisst
Bf Ofw Fritz Bayer vermisst
Bm Uffz Adolf Hamann vermisst
Bs Uffz Karl Glaser vermisst

He 111 H-6 4243 A1+FP 100%
F Uffz Max Franke vermisst
B Gefr Hermann Gröttinger vermisst
Bf Gefr Helmut Tiery vermisst
Bm Uffz Jakob Bühler vermisst
Bs Uffz KarlJenner vermisst

Gen.Qu. correction from 23 August 1942 ee):
Uffz Franke, Gefr Göttinger, Gefr Tiery unverletzt zurück.

Correction from 5 November 1941 o):
Uffz Bühler, Uffz Jenner verletzt zurück.

Regards
Leo

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks again Leo

Really appreciate all your efforts!!
Now, let me just update Kiehl a bit...

B Rgds
Stig