Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 20th October 2012, 19:43
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 2,979
Larry Hickey
Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

Hello,

I'm trying to put together the EoE color profile reference packages for the Bf109s of Maj-Obstlt Werner Mölders for the summer and early fall of 1940. One of his known a/c, W.Nr. 3737, was shot down from high altitude on 25.10.40 with another pilot from the Stab, Hptm. Hans Asmus, flying it. The a/c broke up in the air and showered debris across the countryside. There is a large piece of the fuselage decking still surviving from the crash in the Lashenden Air Warfare Museum. Although the rudder with 49 victory tabs was discovered among the debris, I've never seen or heard that it was subsequently saved. I've been in touch with and visited the museum with the piece of the fuselage, but they know nothing about the lost rudder. It seems to me that such an piece of wreckage, whatever its condition, would have been a prized souvenir and been kept by someone, rather than just being thrown into a scrap dump.

Here is the G-Report on this a/c from the EoE Project records:

"(Hptm Hans Asmus; Stab/JG51 W.Nr. 3737 )
203b.
Me 109. Crashed on 25.10.40 at MAIDSTONE ROAD,, MARDEN. Map ref. R-1762: There were no identification markings on fuselage. Manufacturer's plate was not found. Engine: DB.901 made by Daimler Benz,, Genshageng No.66143. The engine had a large white 'N' stencilled on top of crank case. Following fighter action, pilot baled out at a great height and aircraft broke up in air. The wreckage was distributed over a very wide area. No bullet strikes to be found in wreckage inspected. Armaments 2 20-mm. shell guns and 2 M.G.17's traced. Armour: fuselage bulkhead but none other found. There were 49 so-called "victory" stripes on the tail. A civilian who was near the crash# stated that the airscrew blades were covered with ice when aircraft crashed. Pilot prisoner -injured. (Report #739 P. 2)"

So, does anyone know what happened to this rudder scoreboard? Does it still exist somewhere, perhaps in some private collection?

Who knows about this?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator
__________________
Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st October 2012, 16:10
Andy Saunders Andy Saunders is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South East England
Posts: 1,347
Andy Saunders is on a distinguished road
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

Larry

I am certain that if it survived then this piece would have surfaced by now!

I did an article some while ago in "Aviation News" about the Asmus story of 25 October 1940 (he said Molders was flying the F-1 operationally for the very first time that day) as some of the wreckage/souvenirs became muddled down the years with parts from the 109 flown by Topfer (forget the date) that also came down like confetti across the same bit of countryside.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21st October 2012, 18:25
Seaplanes Seaplanes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 687
Seaplanes is on a distinguished road
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

For many many years ago I visited the Air Historical Branch of the Ministry of Defence in London. They had on exhibit several items from GAF aircraft
stuck on to the walls. If these items is still there or being handed over to IWM or the RAF Museum, I do not know. Mölders rudder may well have been among these items.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 21st October 2012, 19:34
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,840
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

I have been to & from the AHB for over 30 years & apart from 222 Sqns scoreboard on a balkenkreuz have never seen such a thing
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 21st October 2012, 19:50
Seaplanes Seaplanes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 687
Seaplanes is on a distinguished road
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

I was there in the early seventies when they still had the individual aircraft cards for RAF aircraft.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 21st October 2012, 22:00
John Vasco's Avatar
John Vasco John Vasco is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Norwich, originally Liverpool
Posts: 944
John Vasco is on a distinguished road
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

Lashenden.

I gave a talk there some years ago, and I'm pretty sure that was among the articles from Asmus's shot down 109.
__________________
Wir greifen schon an!

Splinter Live at The Cavern, November 2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxOCksQUKbI

Danke schön, Dank schön ich bin ganz comfortable!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 21st October 2012, 22:23
Clint Mitchell's Avatar
Clint Mitchell Clint Mitchell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 457
Clint Mitchell is on a distinguished road
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

Lashenden's website simply states: "A large section of fuselage from Me109 W/Nr 3737 the personnel aircraft of German “Ace” Werner Molders that blew up over Marden in 1940"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21st October 2012, 23:37
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,840
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

The AHB still has the accident cards as well as the ac history cards. Access to them is now another matter!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22nd October 2012, 13:55
Andy Saunders Andy Saunders is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South East England
Posts: 1,347
Andy Saunders is on a distinguished road
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Vasco View Post
Lashenden.

I gave a talk there some years ago, and I'm pretty sure that was among the articles from Asmus's shot down 109.
No. Absolutely not there, and never has been. And not in existence anywhere so far as I know.

Are you getting muddled with Heinz Ebeling's rudder at Hawkinge, perhaps?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 22nd October 2012, 14:53
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 2,979
Larry Hickey
Re: Where is the rudder on Werner Mölders' a/c shot down with Heinz Asmus on 25.10.40 over England?

Hello,

Thanks for your comments. I still can't believe that a 49-victory (sic) rudder discovered in the field wouldn't have been retained by someone. Perhaps the rudder fabric was torn into pieces and apportioned to several people present at the time. This was the Bf109E-4/N in which Mölders apparently got his 40th victory, which qualified him for the Oak Leaves to the RK. It was seen and recorded by the wreck investigation officer and the information on it is reasonably consistent with all other information known about W.Nr. 3737, so I believe that it, or at least pieces of it, likely still exist somewhere. It would have been much examined and commented upon at the time and someone would have kept it if there was any way to do so. Perhaps it is long forgotten in someone's barn or garage, but it seems to me that it is not just something that would have been thrown in the scrap heap.

Incidentally, we have photos of this rudder displaying 40, 42 and 43 victory tabs in the EoE Photo DB. I believe that the total of 49 victory tabs is a miscount, as Mölders got his 49th, 50th and 51st victories on the same mission on 22 October, and it doesn't make sense that only one of these was recorded, unless the painter responsible for this was interrupted by the mission on 25 October when W.Nr.3737 was shot down. A more likely count would have been either 48 or 51 victory tabs. Since we don't know the condition of the rudder when it was recovered, part of the victory count may have been difficult to interpret.

I agree with Andy that it is not at the Lashenden Museum, as back in the late 1970s I visited there and subsequently corresponded several years later with the staff. They denied any knowledge of the rudder artifact, although they have a large piece of fuselage decking which was reportedly from this a/c.

This a/c, displaying 40 victories, will be one of the color profiles in the EoE book series.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator
__________________
Larry Hickey
Eagles Over Europe Project Coordinator
http://airwar-worldwar2.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Friendly fire WWII Brian Allied and Soviet Air Forces 791 21st January 2020 17:59
CO list of Schlacht Gruppen, 39-45 - looking for assistance. Evgeny Velichko Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 15 15th November 2013 12:29
Most One Sided Luftwaffe Victory over the 8th Air Force Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 22 18th August 2010 22:55
Questions on 8th AF Swinemünde raid on 12 March 1945 Juha Allied and Soviet Air Forces 28 8th October 2009 16:32
VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses. Evgeny Velichko Allied and Soviet Air Forces 78 18th August 2009 15:16


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net