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  #21  
Old 28th June 2020, 23:53
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hi Clint

In my books, this is still a Type III and if it thus is a LA or LAS is beyond me.
However the placing of the digits makes me think it could have something to do with Italy.....

The individuals look a bit non-Gallic to me. What do you think?

Cheers
Stig
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  #22  
Old 29th June 2020, 00:26
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hi Stig,


Yes, funny but I had exactly the same two thoughts as yourself. The serial would fit for an Italian Voisin although I have none higher than 1333 in that batch and the first Caudron G.3 at 1358, and, I hate to stereotype, but those guys do look Italian.However, one reservation, the placing of the serial number. Yes it is on the body of the aircraft, but the serial on the few Italian Voisin I've seen has been larger and more prominently placed.Also as you'll recall from the Farman thread on this board, while unusual, serial numbers on the nacelles of French pusher aircraft are not unknown. Oh and another thought, and I'm writing this without having checked. Did the Italians use Hotchkiss machine guns. Well, I think I've avoided commiting myself one way or the other.


Regards,


Clint
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  #23  
Old 29th June 2020, 12:10
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hi Clint

First of all I don't think it is an Italian serial number as such, the number is probably French alright.

I know way too little about how things were done with aircraft the Italians imported. From the SPAD publication done by Alegi, we know that very few of those were actually marked with Italian serials, they flew on with what the French had painted on them.

Did all Voisins get Italian serials? Did they fly for some time with French IDs? We know that the Italians favoured serial numbers either at the front or on the sides of aircraft while the French favoured a rear position.
I can well imagine the French (Voisin) as a courtesy painting the French ID on the nose of their aircraft going to Italy.

With regard to the armament, I have never looked closely at that, so I know very little of what went along with the sale or what was supplied locally.

Cheers
Stig
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  #24  
Old 29th June 2020, 12:51
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hi Stig,


Clearly this is going to be a difficult machine to identify. I believe we may require assistance from a board user who recognizes the chevrons on the aircraft.


A fw observations. If it is accepted that the serial number is french, then the type of aircraft shown would appear to fall into a batch of Type 5 LAS according to the Albin Denis site at: http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...ete_Voisin.htm


If it is a french built machine then it is necessary to observe that Italy is not included among the operators of the Type 5 LAS in Davilla and Soltan.


However, the serial would be viable for an SIT built Type 3 LA. What is the highest serial number you are aware of for a V.13xx series machine? As I've already mentioned V.1333 is the highest I have, but frankly I don't have sufficient reference material.Edit there is a photo of V.1347 of 5 Squadriglia at:guerra-allorizzonte.it/Aviatori/fucini.html if you click on the link for 5a Squadriglia in the text. Also as already stated the serial placement and size is atypical for any Italian built machine of this batch, but again insufficient data is a problem. Do you have WDF 135? Any clues?


At the moment based on far too little information, I incline to a french operated Type 5 LAS, but would happily be proven wrong, just to have certain information.


Regards,


Clint

Last edited by musec04; 29th June 2020 at 14:24.
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  #25  
Old 29th June 2020, 14:22
jschreiber jschreiber is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hello

May be escadrille 481 :

http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...adrille481.htm

The plane has what looks like a Salmson liquid cooled engine, so Voisin 5 probably

Regards

Jean

Last edited by jschreiber; 29th June 2020 at 14:37. Reason: Need better eyes !
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  #26  
Old 29th June 2020, 14:34
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hello Jean,


Well certainly the chevrons are not unlike those of V481, but reading the text on the Albindenis site, the LBP machines were cannon armed and V.1354 is not. I also believe checking images that the cockpit layout of the LBP is significantly different to that of the V.1354. I'll defer to you on the engine I can't tell from the machine in my link the type of engine used.


Regards,


Clint
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  #27  
Old 29th June 2020, 15:17
jschreiber jschreiber is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hello

Before the type 8, Escadrille 481 had Voisin Type 5, and the serial number of the plane seems too low for type 8

Regards

Jean
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  #28  
Old 29th June 2020, 15:24
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hello Jean,


I agree with you on that. Failing the emergence of further information I think we can definitely say a type 5. Were there no other Voisin type 5 operators with chevron markings?


Regards,


Clint
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  #29  
Old 30th June 2020, 14:47
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Jean

Good thinking, but like Clint I am suspicious about this being a V.481 aircraft.

The armament is clearly a machine gun and such a weapon would be useless for the main duties of a unit like V.481.

First of all I am old fashioned and like to use Roman digits when listing these Voisin models. It looks much better....

However before proceeding any further, I would like to know from where you, Jean, gets that V.481 initially used Type V? There is no such indication on either Albert Denis site or in the SHAA book Les Escadrille etc.

As a side note I have to say, unfortunately, lots of people use Voisin designations and Aeronautique Militaire designations mixed like it makes no difference. Well I disagree, it does make a great difference. Albert Denis says V.481 used both LAP and LBPs when in fact they didn't. They used Voisin VIIIBN2 and Voisin VIIICa2. Both the LAP and LBP designations were Voisin's and not Aeronautique Militaire's.

I also want to draw everyones attention to a potential fault in Soltan/Davilla's work.

Was really the Voisin III and Voisin V both called LAS by Voisin? There is no doubt that the Voisin III was designated LA/LAS by Voisin since the raised engine was already started on the model LA. But why would the company not bother about, when installing a completely new engine and also do some further work on the airframe, to change the type letters? Did Voisin think that these modifications all of a sudden did not warrant any new type designation at all? On page 552 (Zoltan/Davilla) the Voisin V is called LAS (identifying the whole production as using the so called raised engine), but on page 554 the same aircraft are now suddenly listed as both the LB (France) and LBS (in Russia). This makes very little sense to me.

Anyone who can clarify this anomaly?

Since I have no idea from where (and how reliable) the serial number listing on Albert Denis' site is, I am still not 100% certain the present photo actually is a Type V (well LAS or LB or even LBS? ) How does one differentiate between a 120 hp Salmson engine and a 150hp one in photos? Exactly what streamlining has been made and does anyone actually see that in a photo?

Also, to be honest, since I cannot see the difference in photos of the so called raised engine on the types in question the S means little to me and I actually don't bother about it as such. If an author is comfortable with seing a difference, I go along with that. In real life during the war, the difference in performance was negligible.

Cheers
Stig
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  #30  
Old 30th June 2020, 16:36
jschreiber jschreiber is offline
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Re: Photo Voisin

Hello

The information upon the usage of the type V at Escadrille 481 comes from the tradition-air.fr site, wich includes the symbols of all the Escadrilles and some information on each one. https://www.traditions-air.fr/

If the plane does not belong to the 481 Escadrille, a slight possibility could be that the "V" marking is an individual plane marking. Not really a straightforward information !

Officialy, the Escadrille 481 had 3 "cannon" Voisin VIII and 6 "bomber" Voisin VIII at July 1st 1917 (historical study done by the Marine nationale in 1927). Before, during the three early months of existence, I have no primary source.

For the visual differences between the type III and the type V, they are not obvious. I will check if there one recognizable on a photo.

Regards
Jean
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