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Old 13th July 2014, 16:38
phasselgren phasselgren is offline
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Claim by 600 Sqn Blenheim night fighter 13/14 March 41

Hi,

I have read that several squadrons of Fighter Command with radar equipped Blenheims were instructed to remove the turrets by the end of 1940 to increase the performance of the aircraft. So far I have not seen any claims made by Blenheims without turrets at least until a few days ago. Thanks to a post on RAF Commands I found the following information:

On the night 13/14 March 1941 pilot P/O Gordon Denby and his radar operator P/O Gilbert Guest of No.600 Sqn claimed a He 111 as destroyed. In several books it is stated that they flew a Beaufighter but in Gentlemens in Blue: 600 Sqn Hans Onderwater wrote: “Most surprisingly Denby and Guest flew a Blenheim, so in that respect their victory was a shining victory.” I had a preview of the combat report and it confirms that it was a Blenheim.

Was Denby/Guest flying a Blenheim without turret when they made their claim on the night 13/14 March 1941?

Is there any photo of a Blenheim with a removed turret in service with a fighter squadron available on the net?

Thanks in advance,
Peter
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Old 17th July 2014, 12:34
bearoutwest bearoutwest is offline
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Re: Claim by 600 Sqn Blenheim night fighter 13/14 March 41

Hi Peter,

Christopher Shores in his volume "Those Other Eagles" records Denby's claim as being the first of No 600 Squadron's kills after re-equipping with Beaufighters. Though it isn't specific whether the squadron was fully re-equipped or whether it was the first kill while the squadron had Beaufighters (in which case Denby may have been flying a Blenheim). It is possible that either Shores or Onderwater are mistaken.

A second possibility is as you say a turretless Blenheim. There were discussions which I noted some time ago in my reading, that it was recommended removing the weight of turret (and gunner) from the fighter Blenheims in order to improve performance, replacing it with a cupola. I can't for the life of me recall where I read this comment.

A third possibility is that the gunner was a ground crew volunteer, and his name is simply not recorded in some documents, especially as the other two crewman (pilot and radar op) were officers. As an example of this heirachial blind-spot, who recalls the name of the gunner from the No 12 Squadron raid on the Meuse bridgeheads. The same crew where the two officers (pilot and observer-bomb-aimer) both received VCs?

The last possibility is that the crew of two flew the Blenheim (if that's what it was) without the gunner that night.

Interesting,
...geoff
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Old 17th July 2014, 21:56
MW Giles MW Giles is offline
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Re: Claim by 600 Sqn Blenheim night fighter 13/14 March 41

Cannot be sure about the particular aircraft in the March 41 as Form 541 is missing from ORB for that month. However, if you look at preceding months and follow a particular aircraft letter over several sorties you can see the same plane with two and three man crews, with no apparent pattern.

This suggests the aircraft had a third crew position and probably a turret. Whether the lack of a third member is intentional or just a relic of poor record keeping is difficult to tell, but there are several sorties recorded with three crew so the system seems to be working

Regards

Martin
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Old 18th July 2014, 15:36
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Juha Juha is offline
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Re: Claim by 600 Sqn Blenheim night fighter 13/14 March 41

Quote:
Originally Posted by phasselgren View Post
...Is there any photo of a Blenheim with a removed turret in service with a fighter squadron available on the net?

Thanks in advance,
Peter
I don't recall of seeing a photo of a turretless Mk IVF serving at a fighter sqn but in Graham Warner's The Bristol Blenheim A complete history 2nd Edition (Crécy 2005) on page 280 there is a good photo of K7072 with the turret removed and the small observation cupola.

Juha
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Old 19th July 2014, 19:26
phasselgren phasselgren is offline
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Re: Claim by 600 Sqn Blenheim night fighter 13/14 March 41

Geoff, Martin and Juha,

Thanks for your replies. I have seen the photo in Graham Warner’s book. It was in this book I found the order by Sholto Douglas to remove the turrets on four of six Fighter Command squadrons equipped with Blenheims. Apparently were 100 conversion sets ordered but I may have exaggerated the importance of this because it is not confirmed in the book that any conversions were made. Tests before the war had shown that the conversion increased the top speed with 25 mph and considering the low top speed of Blenheim fighters this should have been a welcome improvement. Even if the Beaufighter was a much better fighter the delivery rate was slow and Blenheims continued to be used at least until May 1941.

Anyway is my conclusion that Denby and Guest was probably flying a Blenheim with turret but without a gunner. It would of course still be interesting to learn if any conversions were made and if turretless Fighter Command Blenheims were used operationally.

I have also learned that it may be wise to check the ORB or combat reports when studying claims made by units with a slow introduction of a new fighter. Both Those Other Eagles by Christopher Shores and RAF Fighter Command Victory Claims by John Foreman has this claim as a Beaufighter claim.

Regards,
Peter
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Old 20th July 2014, 02:01
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Juha Juha is offline
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Re: Claim by 600 Sqn Blenheim night fighter 13/14 March 41

Quote:
Originally Posted by phasselgren View Post
...I have also learned that it may be wise to check the ORB or combat reports when studying claims made by units with a slow introduction of a new fighter. Both Those Other Eagles by Christopher Shores and RAF Fighter Command Victory Claims by John Foreman has this claim as a Beaufighter claim.

Regards,
Peter
That is unfortunately true but even ORBs were not 100% reliable. But at least trusty old The Blitz Then and Now vol 2 says that Denby and Guest were flying a Blenheim when they shot down the He 111.

juha
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