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  #21  
Old 15th January 2020, 19:33
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

Thanks Guys

I was not aware that Fokker built D.VIIs were not interchangeable with Albatros built ones, but presumably then Alb and OAW were?

Also checked the Aerofiles pages and they certainly say Baum was the pilot and incidentally says the aircraft was D.5584....

I have now checked my secondhand sources for the two pilots in question
The Jasta pilots: Only one Baum, a Ltn d R from Jasta 79b (not our guy)
The Jasta war chronology 15 Oct 1918: Flgmt Baum MFJ 5 interned in Holland
Casualties of the German Air Service 1914-20, part III, POW 15 Oct 1918: FlugzgMt Baum, pilot, MFJ V, Holland interned

None of the above sources have anyone named Karl Engelfried (since he is not in The Jasta pilots, and not under the dates 15 Oct 1918, I have assumed he is not listed anywhere else either, ie different date).

Two questions then pop up, who was Karl Engelfried and from where comes the first name Alfred? Alfred is not mentioned in the three sources above and not on Aerofiles either as far as I can see. Is there a slight chance the pilot actually was Karl Engelfried Baum (possibly also named Alfred)?

Also from where comes the unit details? All my sources says MFJ V or 5. So what was 1e Seeflug Abteilung Marine Jagd Stab IV? Aerofiles even manage to state both these units on their site....

I feel like I am at the end of the line here.
I will re-list the aircraft as either D.5584 or D.5288 and note the problems as initially noticed by Peter. However I am still very certain it is one and the same aircraft/incident....

Thanks Guys for a very rewarding topic. I have enjoyed this discussion tremendously.

Cheers
Stig
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  #22  
Old 15th January 2020, 19:52
Petrusja Petrusja is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

Thanks Stig.

I would suspect that Alfred's name and the supposed unit name come from the official Dutch dossier which NIMH (associated with the armed forces) would have access to.

I'll try to contact some Dutch people who might be able to help.

Off topic - Fokker could provide no proper drawings to Albatros so they copied the design, and pilots preferred the Albatros-built aircraft. I read somewhere that the OAW version was again not identical.

Peter
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  #23  
Old 15th January 2020, 20:18
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

Hello Stig,


Engelfried was, as per my post 17 in this thread a real individual who also served with MFJ V and according to Guttman force landed D.55584/18 on 15 Sept 1918.



My take this is incident 1.


Baum force landed on 15 October according again to Guttman P.52. This I believe may be D.5288/18.Not certain of course.



This is incident 2.


Regards,


Clint
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  #24  
Old 15th January 2020, 23:02
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

Clint/Peter

I just can't believe two D.VII landed on the same date and at the same place in Holland and on top the officials had no idea and classified "two" landings as one.

Neither can I believe no Dutch historian so far has managed to detect this anomaly.

It would be interested to know why Guttman believes so....

Yes please, Peter, check your end because that is where the solution is to be found,... I hope....

Cheers
Stig
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  #25  
Old 16th January 2020, 00:59
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

Hi Stig/Petrusja,


But my point is the two dates are a month apart. September and October.If Jon Guttman is correct Engelfried and D.5584/18 have no relation to October 15th at all. This is also exactly as stated in the Jasta War Chronolgy all information relates to September 15th.


Therefore the question I ask is have the dutch sources referenced by Petrusja and OTF and Air Enthusiast conflated two seperate incidents.Alternatively, of course the Jasta War chronology and subsequently Jon Guttmann have both got the dates for D.5584/18 incorrect.






I'm not familiar with the periodical writingd you reference Stig, but research is cumulative. Therefore are the most up to date of the various publications are perhaps, most likely to be correct.Also Stig would you be able to supply the names of the authors of the periodical articles you reference.







Regards,


Clint
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  #26  
Old 16th January 2020, 01:37
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

I see your point Clint

However there is no recording from Dutch sources of any Fokker D.VII force landing in Holland on 15.9.1918
All sources I have list only one landing and that is on 15.10.1918

Since Karl Engelfried is listed in the War Chronology, why is he is strangely absent in the two other sources? No Engelfried in Jasta Pilots and no Engelfried interned in Holland on 15.9.1918. Makes me think that maybe the Chronology has an error and Guttman simply repeats it.

The articles I am quoting from are:
Dutch Military Aircraft 1910-1920 (Early purchase of aircraft and the first aircraft manufacturers in the Kingdom of the Netherlands by Johan G.H. Visser (Over the Front Vol 22 No 1 - Spring 2007)

Interned! A list of aeroplanes of all nationalities that were interned by the Dutch authorities after landing in Holland during 1914-1918 by Harry van Dorssen and Frits Gerdessen (Cross & Cockade Vol 16 No 1)

Unexpected windfalls (Accidentally or deliberately, more than 100 aircraft arrived in Dutch territory during the Great War) by Bart van der Klaauw (Air Enthusiast issu no 80 - April/May 1999)

Cheers
Stig
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  #27  
Old 16th January 2020, 08:59
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

Hi Stig,


Looking at your sources and particularly the article titles I would have to agree that the 15 September information is wrong and there's also the later shooting down of a balloon by Engelfried on 26 October.


That leaves Baum in D.5584/18 on the 15 October by default.Correct?


Regards,


Clint
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  #28  
Old 16th January 2020, 11:24
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

Anything seems possible by now Clint

I have now read so many small bits and pieces, that I have by now forgotten where I read this, but at least one source "sounded" like the interned pilot (crews) were sent packing home very quickly, while the Dutch very cleverly kept the aeroplanes....

So it is not entirely impossible that our guy (let's call him Karl Engelfried Alfred Baum ) was sent packing across the border and was back with his unit just a couple of days later.

I don't like this "two-names-one-aircraft" situation. Until that is resolved at least I feel very uneasy....

Cheers
Stig
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  #29  
Old 16th January 2020, 16:28
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII

Stig,


Interestingly (or not!) Casualties of the German Air Service 1914-20 by the same three authors of the Jasta War Chronology, Franks,Bailey and Duiven but published a year later, 1999 vs 1998 has no mention of Engelfried on 15 September. But still mentions Daum on 15 October. Had they spotted an error perhaps in the earlier publication?


Dare we say that this is now an Engelfried free thread?


Regards,


Clint
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  #30  
Old 16th January 2020, 18:49
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: German Navy Fokker D.VII



It is undoubtedly an interesting situation we have Clint

Cheers
Stig
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