Seeking photos/info of 92 SQ Spitfires crashed & damaged during 23.5.40 combat over France

[Andy Saunders]

Wise 62 - can you confirm the engine numbers on the RR Merlin III plate?

The top one looks like 19131. Is it prefixed by a letter? C perhaps??

The lower AM/RAF number seems to be A/44307....although 144307 might make more sense?

If you can confirm the numbers you have it would be most helpful indeed. Thank you!

[wise62]

I confirm
MERLIN III 19131
RIGHT HAND TRACTOR
A 144503 (and no 44307 OR 144307)

Wise62

[Ex Shack]

Hi Larry
I note you are in the USA which might make this difficult, but on the Discovery Channel as broadcast by satellite in UK and Europe, there have been several repeats of a UK programme under the overall title "Time Team" devoted to archaeological digs,mostly earlier History.However, one of them was about recovering the wreckage of Klipsh's Spitfire in France, his body having been removed at the time of his death. I don't how you could get a look at it but it was fairly comprehensive.
Regards
Dick

[Andy Saunders]

Dick

Peter & Arnold and I were both involved with the "Time Team" programme and the Klipsch recovery and one of us could no doubt get a DVD to Larry if he wanted one. However, I suspect it will not add much to his quest for detailed loss information.

Andy

[Andy Saunders]

The AM Form 78 gives engine number 136527 for P9370 which conflicts with the engine number found at the mystery crash site. Whilst this does not rule out Learmond as the possible pilot of the mystery crash the AM 78 unfortunately does not give us corroborative linking evidence. However, the possibility that the original engine (136527) was replaced and the number not recorded on the F.78 cannot be excluded either. That said, the engine numbers identified at the Klipsch and Cazenove crash sites matched those recorded on the relevant F.78's.

Thus, the mystery endures!

As an afterthought, I would add that the image of the Rolls-Royce Merlin plate does not reflect (in my view and experience) a plate that has been torn from a disintegrating Merlin which has buried itself some metres into the ground. To me, this has the appearance of a data plate removed from an intact or relatively intact engine. It shows no witness marks or distress from distortion caused in high speed impacts and no evidence of being straightened out. It is possible that this plate "pinged" off the broken/breaking engine but in my experience it would show severe signs of damage and bending if this were the case.

Is there any chance, Wise62, that this plate originated from any other more intact Spitfire wreck and its provenance has become confused in recent years? It wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

[Andy Saunders]

Continuing my delving into the mystery Spitfire crash mentioned by Wise62 I have established that the pilot was buried as an Unknown Airman of 39/45 War in Plot 14, Row E, Grave 22 of Terlincthun British Cemetery (Pas de Calais) on 28 July 1988.

The mystery endures, but notwithstanding the conflicting RR Merlin engine number I am inclined to the view that this is most likely Pat Learmond of 92 Squadron. All the evidence, circumstantial and otherwise, points in that direction.

Larry? Peter?

[Peter Cornwell]

Andy,

I agree there is a strong possibility but without better corroboration we are, at best, dealing with another 'believed to be' case I'm afraid. Regretably, the RR engine plate IMO can only be viewed as an 'associated' piece rather than evidential, though had the engine number actually matched the F.78 then, clearly, things would have been different.

[Andy Saunders]

I agree. However, I remain unconvinced that the Merlin plate illustrated actually originated with the crash site in question. It shows no sign of the kind of "trauma" associated with items from such crashes. To me this has all the appearance of a plate that has been pinged off another, intact, RR Merlin. If so, then the provenance along the way has been compromised. There are one or two other potential Merlin's it could have belonged to. I suspect we shall never know.....!

[wise62]

Hi,
as you have seen , on the picture , with the plate, there was a little part of cloth.
This picture has been taken after the dig and I wonder why another plate of another merlin would have been pictured as the plate of this particular engine. The crash was in a dumpy soil, very smooth, with no stones.. It was the beginning of archeology in the area. Only two spits had been found at this time : Piotr Laguna and Stephenson one's.. even a beginner, the group was able to keep proofs of it's finds.
The is a lot of forms which do not list the number of the engine. Bad luck for this case!


Wise62

[northeagle]

Originally Posted by wise62

Hello,

the spitfire into the sand has a M as part of his code letters, the site is the beach near Wissant.
Does anyone has a picture of P/O Gillies? I have located his crash site.

Wise62

Another one of Gillies. Taken at Stalag Luft III photo courtesy of Dudley Craig.

Best Wishes.
Robert.