"... lazy people should be send to the East(front)...

[kalender1973]

Hi,

some time ago, I read the Jochen Prien book about JG 1 & 11. If I recall right, in the second band the notes from Günter Lützow in early 44 (from one of conferences about Day figther in RLV) was listed. One point is for me not explanable:

"... lazy people should be send to the east..." ( I read the book in german that is my free translation.

If we say, that the west front and RLV was more dengerous then the east front, why somebody should send to the war where he has more chance to survive, even he is lazy ???

[Boandlgramer]

maybe it was meant : "lazy" people have to fight on the ground with the infantry
but the best way would be to post the text here in german.
there are enough germans around .

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Boandlgramer

maybe it was meant : "lazy" people have to fight on the ground with the infantry
but the best way would be to post the text here in german.
there are enough germans around .

Ok, the text in german was some like "... faule Leute schicken nach Osten...".

The conference was in the first quater of 1944. I don't know, that in that time the flying personal was sent to the infantery...

[Ruy Horta]

The Ostfront was seen as a meat grinder, so in general any comments of being sent to the Eastern Front was tantamount to sort of a death sentence.

If Lutzow made a such a comment it would have been in that spirit.

In terms of the Air War, you might draw the conclusion that at least Lutzow did not regard the Eastern (air) Front as a cozy assignment.

OTOH, the above might be out of context and reflect a tour of duty on the ground...

Anyway up to 1944 any assignment in (north-)western europe was seen as relatively cozy compared to the Eastern Front, the Jagdwaffe in the west lived in relative luxury.

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

the remark in the Lützow notes here in question was only one of a number of similar statements that were aiming at so called " unproductive " fighter pilots in the ranks of the units on home defense; something quite similar had happened before to the fighter pilots serving in the Mediterrannean theatre of war. What it was meant to say is that pilots who in the eyes of the Luftwaffe leaders were not aggressive enough and did not show sufficient courage and fighting spirit when countering the US heavy bombers were to be degraded and sent to the Eastern front as foot soldiers, where they could see further service as canon fodder. The German word "faul" in this sense would not translate as lazy but rather as rotten.

In the summer of 1943 the III. Gruppe of JG 11 had one Staffel - the 7./JG 11 - that had the additional and rather dubious task to evaluate pilots in combat, whose battle spirit had become questionable - if justified or not cannot be judged in retrospect - at their former units; it is not known so far, how long this doubtful honour was bestowed on 7./JG 11, as apparently later in the year the evaluation was transferred to a Sonderstaffel within JG 11, although precious little documentary traces can be found. What can be found in the Lützow notes however is that pilots of said evaluation unit who did not score a claim within three sorties against the US bombers were to be sent to the Eastern front and this definitely not as fighter pilots any more.

This whole thinking is typical for the cynical and inhumane attitude of the higher echelons of the Wehrmacht including the Luftwaffe; what was the ordinary duty for millions of German infantery soldiers - to serve in the hell of the Eastern Front - who had no choice at all, was deemed as an especially terrifying form of punishment for the pilots of the Luftwaffe who had the misfortune to fall in disgrace with their leaders on the accusation of cowardice in the face of the enemy.

I have yet to research the question, if and who suffered this fate in said unit of JG 11; there are however other examples, where pilots, including officers, were sent to field units in the East, so that this was no hollow threat.

Jochen Prien

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Jochen Prien

This whole thinking is typical for the cynical and inhumane attitude of the higher echelons of the Wehrmacht including the Luftwaffe; Jochen Prien

But this thinking is not only cynical and inhumane rather not productive. I thought that LW suffers the lack of flying personal and not only in figther arm but also in e.g. Schlachtgeschwader. The problem of "unproductive" pilots arised already earlier. If I recall correct, the Generall Keller (Chief of Luftflotte 1) have suggested already in 1942 to remove such pilots from the fighter arm and transfer it to close ground support...
I could not believe, that this idea of Lützow was supported by higher LW commando in this phase of war - send the pilots to ground forces, which education take at least 2-3 years.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

I have always wondered if the 'East Front sanction' was a myth or not. In all my experience of WWII readings I have not found a real case of such a sanction, while I have found tens of cases of people jugded or degraded. Usually a man committing an offense against the military law was sentenced to jail or worse, maybe they were sent to the East Front after that but I doubt it. East Front was an active front, and probably the worse, but I doubt the German military will officialy recognize it as a punishment.

As for pilots being degraded and sent to the East Front as infantry, I have no example of that. I remember 3 cases of pilots having disiplin problems. One was on the East Front and ended in Africa, one in the Med and remained there, one on the West and went to Mourmansk front IIRC.

[George Hopp]

East Front was an active front, and probably the worse, but I doubt the German military will officialy recognize it as a punishment.

The Eastern Front was a meat grinder, and getting sent there to serve in the infantry was not a happy circumstance. For most, it ended up being a death sentence.

[Jukka Juutinen]

This thread has been an excellent reminder why I don´t buy any PC books from J.P. Again he displayed his Hannes Heerisms.

[Juha]

Jukka
what’s the problem? IMHO Prien gave an excellent answer to the question and also gave useful background information.

Regards
Juha