Loss of He 111 H-2 W.Nr. 5314 G1+GK of 2./KG 55 - place

[Franek Grabowski]

Hi
According to the German loss returns, He 111 H-2 W.Nr. 5314 G1+GK of 2./KG 55 crashed 10 km south west of Isle of Wight. Nonetheless is there any other evidence that allows to corroborate the place of the crash? I am asking because there is a report of an aircraft crashed mid-Channel, with crew and green marker seen. I do not quite find any other aircraft that could have crashed there, so it remains a bit of a mystery to me. I understand that no bodies were recovered nor washed out, and the crew remains missing.
TIA
Franek

[Nick Beale]

On what date?

[Rottler]

26 September 1940.
Missing crew:
Oblt Hans-Hermann Graf von Schweinitz
Uffz Heinrich Widmann
Uffz Werner Schob
Gefr Erich Wastian
Gefr Richard Helfer.

Regards
Leo

[Chris Goss]

Luftflotte 3 records just state one aircraft was missing so must have come down in the sea

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Chris Goss

Luftflotte 3 records just state one aircraft was missing so must have come down in the sea

Strictly speaking, two Me 110 lost - crashed on Isle of Wight, one He 111 lost - missing over the Channel, two He 111 seriously damaged, one He 111 with a wounded crew.
There are two places indicated, 5-6 miles South of Isle of Wight, where a smoking He 111 was seen to dive into the sea, and 30 miles South of Isle of Wight, were a crew was seen next to a wreck and dispersing a green marker. Obviously, only one of those was correct. I wonder if there is any additional evidence that would allow to identify the correct crash site.

[Chris Goss]

True regards the ZG 26 aircraft but I did not mention them as you were asking about the He 111. Trouble is, as you know well, RAF squadrons claimed an astounding 16 He 111s destroyed, 2 probables and 2 damaged that afternoon

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Chris Goss

True regards the ZG 26 aircraft but I did not mention them as you were asking about the He 111. Trouble is, as you know well, RAF squadrons claimed an astounding 16 He 111s destroyed, 2 probables and 2 damaged that afternoon

That is true, and to add to confusion, some He 111s/Ju 88s were apparently confused with Me 110s/Do 17s and vice versa. Nonetheless quite a number of claims could be grouped and matched to particular circumstances. Eg. the He 111 claimed downed 5 miles South IoW was reported to smoke from both engines and dive to sea, and there is a number of nearly identical reports.

[Chris Goss]

Franek: Too true. An unbelievable example of overclaiming-9 Bf 109s destroyed, 5 probables and one damaged; Ju 88 destroyed; 2 Do 17s destroyed, 7 damaged, one probable; 5 Bf 110s destroyed and 6 damaged (or thereabouts). Attack was by 18 He 111s from I./KG 55, 19 from II./KG 55, 13 Bf 110s from Erprobungsgruppe 210 with an escort of 48 Bf 110s from ZG 26, 38 Bf 109s from JG 2 and 6 Bf 109s from 5./JG 53. German claims were not much better

[Franek Grabowski]

Chris
I have a problem with establishing the actual number of aircraft claimed and credited victories. It seems there was a lot of confusion in regard of types encountered, and eg. for some reason few claims of No 303 Sqn for Do 215s were changed at some point for He 111s - why? Also, it looks some of the claims were then reasessed and downgraded.
As far as I can work out of the mess, it looks the Me 110 at Freshwater was claimed by at least 5 pilots, the one at Newport - 6, and the He 111 just off the IoW - 7 pilots. Few reports of Nos 152 and 609 Sqns are missing, so the numbers might be higher. It also looks that at least two of own fighters went down in blue on blue. This reduces the German accuracy significantly, as it leaves 4 for 20 claimed. Of course, assuming that the pilots correctly identified their victims. I have found one evident case another day, when a pilot shot down one aircraft but lost it from sight, and then reported the demise of another as a result of his fire. So, we can not ever be sure.
I would say that a fair part of the overclaim in the BoB was caused by wrong classification of victories, several being credited as individual even if claimed as shared.
In this case I am intrigued by the claim of green marker. While I am aware of few pilots providing fake claims, I have no reason to believe it was the case, and the detail seems too unusual to be an invention of the pilot. It would mean that the aircraft attacked off IoW somehow made to France, as it looks it was not the same as the one finished mid-Channel. But, some evidence would be most welcome.

[Chris Goss]

Franek: Another agreement from me. For example 609 initially claimed:
Dundas 109 dest, 215 dam
Bisdee 111 prob
Ogilvie 111 dam
Darley Do prob, Do dam
Agazarian 109 dest, 2 Do dam
Curchin 111 dest
Forshaw Do 215 dam


The only pilot to see a He 111 crash was Curchin who recorded it "diving in to the sea 30 miles from the coast"