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  #11  
Old 16th November 2017, 20:11
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

Good evening RSwank,

thanks for that cool link.
I stumbled over the job designation:
  • John Cox - airplane commander
  • Chester Marshall - pilot (co-pilot)
Who flew the plane ?

Michael
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  #12  
Old 16th November 2017, 21:16
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

The Airplane Commander. For some reason the AAF decided to change the name for the Pilot to Airplane (or Aircraft) Commander.

Here is a training manual for the "Airplane Commander". The 2nd position is still called co-pilot in this manual

http://www.jamminpower.com/PDF/Fligh...20Training.pdf


On page 60 of this book: https://books.google.com/books?id=BV...20seat&f=false

the positions are left seat, "Aircraft Commander" and right seat "Pilot".
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  #13  
Old 17th November 2017, 09:19
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

Good morning RSwank,

thanks for your answer.
Thus, if B-29 pilots were credited with the kills of their gunners (which they weren't) then John Cox would have been a 10-kill-B-29-ace, wouldn't he ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael
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  #14  
Old 2nd January 2018, 09:11
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

Good morning Gentlemen,

what was the middle name of Robert E Haynes ?

Kind regards,

Michael
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  #15  
Old 2nd January 2018, 21:00
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

I believe his middle name was Eugene. One correction to a previous post, when he joined the AAF he flew with the 2nd BG (then with the 12th AF) in North Africa. He flew some 58 missions according to one newspaper article from 1943 and in October 1943 came home with his crew and his plane, the B-17F 42-29611 "A-Merry-Can".


(Osborne's FortLog on 42-29611 does not quite match up date wise, not sure why).

In the photo Lt Col Haynes appears to be standing, 2nd from the right. There are 58 mission bombs on the plane, including a "battleship". The photo may have been taken just prior to or during the war bond tour.
Haynes went from Captain to Major to Lt Col in the 2nd BG. He was the 49th Squadron Commander.

http://www.2ndbombgroup.org/images/U...and%20B-17.jpg


There are a couple of on-line pdf books on the 2nd BG website ( http://2ndbombgroup.org/ ). They are "The Second was First" and "Defenders of Liberty" Haynes is mentioned many times in them e.g.:

"Lt. Col. Robert E. "Pappy" Haynes, Commander,
49th Squadron was awarded the Distinguished
Flying Cross on September 18, (1943) the first
member of the Group to be so honored."

Haynes was born 29 April 1908 in New York and died on 1 December 1996 in California. His body was cremated.

Last edited by RSwank; 3rd January 2018 at 16:43.
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  #16  
Old 3rd January 2018, 10:48
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

Good morning RSwank,

thanks for the cool info, your knowledge is impressive.
Can you tell me if Haynes' 25 Thumper missions were the first 25 missions in Thumper's service ?

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael
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  #17  
Old 4th January 2018, 00:18
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

No, Haynes did not fly all of the first 25 Thumper missions. As an example, there is a diary of Carl Barthold from the J. M. Campbell crew here:

http://www.497thbombgroupb29.org/per...ld,%20Carl.pdf


On page pdf page 8, he describes a mission they flew on A-21, Thumper on 15 February, 1945 to Nagoya. He mentions that R. G. Didier got an "Irving" on the mission.

In this photo of the the Campbell crew in front of Thumper that Nagoya mission with a kill flag is shown as mission number 18 of the 20 missions shown.

http://www.497thbombgroupb29.org/ima...%20A-21%20.png

Last edited by RSwank; 4th January 2018 at 02:25.
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  #18  
Old 4th January 2018, 12:34
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

Hello RSwank,

very interesting.
I think the mission with the 6 kills was flown by Haynes.
Are any other missions with claimed enemy aircraft known to have been flown by Mr Haynes ?

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael
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  #19  
Old 5th January 2018, 23:30
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

There is a section in fold3 (I think it is in the FREE section) that contains some details on the missions flown by 497th BG planes. The section starts here:

https://www.fold3.com/image/291/316632850

I went through it see see what could be learned about Thumper and Haynes. When comparing the mission flags we see on Thumper in this photo:

http://www.497thbombgroupb29.org/ima...%20A-21%20.png

we run into a few problems. Haynes appears to have flown the first 15 missions in Thumper as listed on the fold3 pages. The pages and the photo seem to agree at the start. The first mission was to Truk on 30 Oct 44, the 2nd to Iwo Jima on 5 Nov. Then Thumper shows 5 mission flags to Tokyo. The fold3 missions show only 4 Tokyo missions for Haynes (to Musashino which is Tokyo), on 24 Nov, 27 Nov, 29 Nov and 3 Dec, so there seems to be an "extra" Tokyo mission flag on Thumper. (A missing fold3 mission perhaps).

Next, fold3 shows a mission to Iwo Jima on 8 December which was aborted, so no mission flag. This is followed by two missions to Nagoya flown by Haynes. One kill on the 13 Dec mission and 2 kills on 22 December (they also show on the Thumper photo).

Next a mission to Musashino-Tokyo with 1 kill on 27 Dec 44.
Haynes flies to Nagoya on 3 Jan and Osaka on 9 Jan. Then to Nagoya on 14 Jan with 2 kills.
To Nagoya on the 23rd of Jan. Then, on 27 Jan, Haynes flies the 6 kill mission to Musashino-Tokyo. This is the last mission Haynes flies on Thumper according to the fold3 list. In fact, Haynes name does not appear on any further missions for any planes in the fold3 mission list that I could find. (Maybe an extra pair of eyes is needed). Another possibility is he flew other missions in a lead ship but was in the right hand ("co-pilot") seat. He was the squadron commander so he may have been directing the mission but not "flying" the lead ship.

Lamback flys a Super Dumbo mission (target was Kobe) on 4 Feb. Delker flys to Ota on 10 Feb and then J.M. Campbell flys the 15 Feb mission to Nagoya with 1 kill.

Campbell flies several more missions on Thumper (he flew a total of 7). Many other Aircraft Commander (AC) names show up. The fold3 list shows 43 "missions" for Thumper, but 3 of those are Aborts (plane took off but did not get to target) and 2 are Scratches (plane never took off).

Thus we don't get to 40 listed missions for Thumper either. I suspect there may be a few missing missions on the fold3 list. (I know there are errors in at least one of the serial numbers listed, for example). While photos exist of Thumper with all the mission flags in the original format (with names on the bombs and Thumper riding each one) I have not found a photo clear enough to read all the target names. Then, as was mentioned in a prior post, when Thumper was on the bond tour, the nose art had been redone. (Oddly, one name that does not show up at all as a pilot forThumper is Fishburne (see post #8).)


FYI, there is another section on fold3 that has the citations for medals given in the 497th BG. That section starts here: https://www.fold3.com/image/291/316633395

Last edited by RSwank; 6th January 2018 at 02:51.
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  #20  
Old 6th January 2018, 02:56
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Highest scoring B-29

RSwank,
I took a look at the Fold3 material that you linked, out of curiosity. I am not sure it is free; I had to log in. In any case, looking at the contents, I have to conclude that this is not an original document. It looks more like something prepared in Excel, or the output of an Access report. So my first question would be, what is the original source for these listings? The next thing I noted is that the mission list has a gap from Nov 5 to Nov 24. Did the 497th fly no missions in this period?

If my guess that this is something prepared by Fold3 (or possibly given to Fold3) I do not find it surprising that there could be a gap, considering all the gaps that apparently have never been filled in the MACR collection (which ought to be totally revised to use the unique MACR number, instead of the aircraft serial number, which can be missing or duplicated). Thus one needs to find the original source documents, and go back to them. These documents are probably in NARA II, since Fold3 has developed a relationship with NARA.

So someone needs to find and review the original documents.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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