Klaus Bretschneider "Abschusse"

[focusfocus]

Hello All

How do we go about 34 "Abschuss"!!
That sounds like a STUPID QUESTION at first glance....thought.

I was able to find "only" 13 officially approuved by the RLM (including one shared with Rudi Zwesken).

To added 6 classified JUST probable (VNE ASM),it's just probable but not certain.= 19 (under reserve)....we don't get to 34.

So?
Michel

[Stig Jarlevik]

Michel

Don't you have Johannes 4-vol set of Luftwaffe aces?
He lists Bretschneider with 22 confirmed claims and 18 unconfirmed ones.

Luftwaffe did not have shared or probable claims. Only one applicant was allowed and you either submitted a confirmed claim or you didn't submit anything at all. At least that was the general idea!

Looking for confirmed claims by RLM from 1944 and on is risky, since I have no idea what remains, and the Ministereum certainly took its time to verify these claims. The microfilms used by Johannes are the best remaining evidence there is.

Sometimes he is at odds with what others are reading, but remember that reading those films is a very tough job, so mistakes are possible.

Cheers
Stig

[focusfocus]

Hi Stig

No,I don't have the book of Johannes,but he doesn't seem to find 34 too.
I know that the luftwaffe did not approve of "abschuss "shared but on 07/19/44,Bretschneider an Zwelken were approved the same P-38:claim same hour,same place:11.35 15 km Bad Aibling 5 500m...but a single loss:Lt Van Gelder of 14° FG,also the "abschuss" should have been approved to one or the other but not both.

I studied the VNE ASM,and often by comparing the allied losses and the official homologations,it's normal that the RLM classified them with a doubt.
We have no proof that the VNE ASM have been subsequently approved (often rightly because no material evidence among others,was found,hence the uncertainty and classification in VNE ASM,so (for me) a VNE ASM stay a probable until proven otherwise.

That only involved me of course.

Best Regards
Michel

[knusel]

Good morning Stig and Michel,

I'm interested in Klaus Bretschneider, too, because he might be the JG300 top scorer. His score is indicated as 31 or 40 in different books. Which figure is his valid official total ?

Cheers,

Michael

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by knusel

Good morning Stig and Michel,

I'm interested in Klaus Bretschneider, too, because he might be the JG300 top scorer. His score is indicated as 31 or 40 in different books. Which figure is his valid official total ?
Cheers,
Michael

"Insgesamt mindestens 31 Luftsiege, davon 14 nachts."

According to this ancient but still useful reference:

Obermaier, Ernst. Die Ritterkreuzträger der Luftwaffe: Jagdflieger 1939-1945. Mainz: Verlag Dieter Hoffmann, 1966. Hb (oversize). Dj. 256p. Dual German-English text. Illus. Index. Page 102.

Other sources give 34 for his total, of which 14 at night.

So a good "Abschüße-by-Abschüße" audit is definitely needed for Bretschneider.

L.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Michael/Michel

Cross checking Lorant's book about JG 300 and Johannes list they both have 40 claims by Bretschneider.

However they choose to differ when it comes to which claims were confirmed.

The confirmation system in the Luftwaffe was a slow and complicated process meaning a confirmation could be received at any point in time after the claim, making some claims made later being confirmed earlier and so on.

Lorant complicates things by giving confirmation numbers way too high.
His highest confirmation number for Bretschneider is 70 making me think they may refer to the Luftwaffe point system.

An absolute cross check is not possible since Lorant does not list which claims made by Bretschneider he considers to be confirmed.

Until then I would say Johannes list is what we have, see my earlier post.

If anyone is really interested, I suggest you try to get the claim reels and try yourself, or buy the books published.
Cheers
Stig

[knusel]

Good evening Stig & Larry,

this helps a lot, thank you.
Now I know the top scorers of all German Jagdgeschwader.
(I presume EJG1 did not produce aces ?)

Have a good weekend,

Michael